Guns used for lawful self defense

[Wumbologist]

I'm with you. I really don't know if Blind Groper honestly has statistics on his side or not, but if I hear someone breaking into my house I'm sure as shit not going to be submissive and hope for the best. Not when I have a handgun where I can get at it quick.

Handgun schmandgun. 40 rounds of 5.56mm hollow point ready to go at a moment's notice.

[Seth]

Actually, Seth, I do understand quite a bit about statistics, having done a university course on applied stats, and having made use of statistics on a professional level. I am not a professional statistician, of course, but far from ignorant.

Then you should have known better.

What is ridiculous is you quoting that flawed survey on how many people successfully use guns in self defense. There are certain survey questions that create their own answer, and that is one. I remember the national car club that did a survey on driver safety. One question was : Do you consider yourself, as a driver, to be
a. Excellent
b. Above average
c. Average
d. Below average
e. Poor
Strangely, the result was 85% above average or excellent! An inevitable result coming from using a flawed question

When you ask a bunch of gun nutters another flawed question : "Have you ever used your gun successfully in self defense?" then of course there is going to be a whole bunch of imaginary "yes" answers. Like you, Seth, most gun nuts fantasize about using their guns in a heroic way to stop villains. What people fantasize about, a sizable percentage will come to believe.

You don't know what question was asked or what the methodology of the numerous studies on armed self defense are, so your opinion is worth as much as the shit I just took.

[Seth]

I'm with you. I really don't know if Blind Groper honestly has statistics on his side or not, but if I hear someone breaking into my house I'm sure as shit not going to be submissive and hope for the best. Not when I have a handgun where I can get at it quick.

Handgun schmandgun. 40 rounds of 5.56mm hollow point ready to go at a moment's notice.

Yup. Unless it's all you have, your pistol is strictly for fighting your way to your rifle. Sadly, they frown on me openly carrying my FN FS 2000 in the city, even though it's perfectly legal to do so. You get harassed by the cops at every turn if you do what lots of Israelis do every day.

This is the rifle on the cool dive case I recently acquired. It allows you to shoot the rifle underwater. (the glove is inside out for illustration) I use it when I carry the rifle on my motorcycle, to keep it dry and still available.

That's a Laser Devices CQBL visible/IR aiming laser on top and a Surefire M720V white/ir weapon light and an EoTech NV holographic sight, along with the new angled MagPul foregrip. The dual switch pad that operates both the Surefire and the CQBL is on the left side rail.

While the FN is not as "standardized" as the AR platform, and it's a little slower to change mags, I have it because it's as close to a short barreled rifle as you can get without registering it as an NFA firearm. I can even remove the flash hider, making it about 2 inches shorter, without being shorter than the minimum 26 inch legal rifle length.

One of these days I may SBR my Sig 556P and swap out the pistol lower with my Sig 556 folding stock rifle lower and end up with a shorter rifle, but this works well, even though it has a hefty and not very precise trigger pull. There's a mod that will lighten and smooth the trigger pull available, but I haven't gotten it yet.

FS2000 dive1.jpeg (158.79 KiB) Viewed 536 times

[Ian]

Yup. Unless it's all you have, your pistol is strictly for fighting your way to your rifle.

For my purposes, I think this is all I'd ever need.

I keep a loaded clip inside and a couple spare clips next to it, inside a keypad-operated safe. For fighting off a late-night intruder in the close confines of my house (and I can't imagine any other possible use for it where I live), that'll work just fine. I wouldn't need to fire anything outdoors or at a distance, only indoors, so a rifle or even a shotgun would be more unwieldy than I'd like.

[Svartalf]

This ISN't your service weapon, though, is it?
Isn't the short grip uncomfortable?

[Blind groper]

Ian

This type of argument is just another version of the general insanity that is American gun culture. The fallacy that guns are a solution to a problem rather than the problem itself.

Most of this recent discussion is about home invasions. Expert advice on how to cope with home invasions is readily available.
http://www.professorshouse.com/Your-Hom ... tatistics/

Compared to murders by family members, murders during home invasions are few and far between. Likewise women getting raped in home invasions. It happens, but it is far more common for rape to come from a person known to the woman victim.

The responses I have seen in this thread are ridiculously paranoid and over-hyped. Most home invasions can be avoided with a few precautions, and if they happen, can have harm minimised with sensible and non violent behaviour. Drawing a gun is about the most stupid thing anyone can do. It almost guarantees that a situation that can be kept under control will escalate out of control, leaving someone badly injured or dead.

It is noteworthy that people opposed to the commonsense way of coping are arguing with anecdotes, which any rational person knows is a fallacious method of debate.

[mistermack]

Ian

This type of argument is just another version of the general insanity that is American gun culture. The fallacy that guns are a solution to a problem rather than the problem itself.

Most of this recent discussion is about home invasions. Expert advice on how to cope with home invasions is readily available.
http://www.professorshouse.com/Your-Hom ... tatistics/

Compared to murders by family members, murders during home invasions are few and far between. Likewise women getting raped in home invasions. It happens, but it is far more common for rape to come from a person known to the woman victim.

The responses I have seen in this thread are ridiculously paranoid and over-hyped. Most home invasions can be avoided with a few precautions, and if they happen, can have harm minimised with sensible and non violent behaviour. Drawing a gun is about the most stupid thing anyone can do. It almost guarantees that a situation that can be kept under control will escalate out of control, leaving someone badly injured or dead.

It is noteworthy that people opposed to the commonsense way of coping are arguing with anecdotes, which any rational person knows is a fallacious method of debate.

The anecdotists never mention all the suicides and accidents that happen because of guns being around.
Or the people killed by being MISTAKEN for robbers.
Or the people killed because someone has the gun at home, and goes home in a rage, gets it, and kills someone .

Or the little kids who pick up a loaded gun and set it off, killing some other little kid.

Or the fact that the criminals guns start their career as proper kosher weapons of self-defence.

[Blind groper]

Good points, Mistermack.
Thank you for them.

In the USA, the greatest numbers of deaths by firearm is suicide. In the USA, there are 12,000 hand gun suicides each year. Normally, a would-be suicide has an impulse to kill him/herself, which lasts for a limited period - a few minutes to a couple of hours. If they can find a convenient means of killing themselves in that period, there is a death. If not, the person passes the critical period (in most cases) and there is no death.

If a person keeps a hand gun at home, that is an invitation to suicide, and the hand gun owner is putting his/her family at terrible risk. If the idiot insists on owning an hand gun anyway, it should be locked away where kids cannot get hold of it. Of course, if that happens, the hand gun is pretty much useless as a defense against a home invader, anyway. But locking it away very substantially reduces the risk of someone getting killed.

60% of all suicides in the USA are by hand gun. In other countries, such deaths are very few and far between, and the lack of hand guns no doubt saves lives by the thousands.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

We have this all sorted then? Good.

[Seth]

Ian

This type of argument is just another version of the general insanity that is American gun culture. The fallacy that guns are a solution to a problem rather than the problem itself.

Most of this recent discussion is about home invasions. Expert advice on how to cope with home invasions is readily available.
http://www.professorshouse.com/Your-Hom ... tatistics/

Compared to murders by family members, murders during home invasions are few and far between. Likewise women getting raped in home invasions. It happens, but it is far more common for rape to come from a person known to the woman victim.

The responses I have seen in this thread are ridiculously paranoid and over-hyped. Most home invasions can be avoided with a few precautions, and if they happen, can have harm minimised with sensible and non violent behaviour. Drawing a gun is about the most stupid thing anyone can do. It almost guarantees that a situation that can be kept under control will escalate out of control, leaving someone badly injured or dead.

Yup. The crook, dead. I'm good with that.

It is noteworthy that people opposed to the commonsense way of coping are arguing with anecdotes, which any rational person knows is a fallacious method of debate.

It is when you're debating with an ignoramus who knows absolutely nothing whatever about armed self defense.

The anecdotes show that your theory is, literally, fatally flawed.

[Seth]

The anecdotists never mention all the suicides and accidents that happen because of guns being around.

This is because accidents are increasingly rare and suicides have nothing whatever to do with armed self defense, so both are red herring argumants.

Or the people killed by being MISTAKEN for robbers.

Quite rare. And MY right to effective armed self defense is not to be determined by the foolish, imprudent or criminally negligent conduct of others. If I shoot the wrong person negligently or have an accident, then the law provides adequate punishment and deterrence to such reckless behavior, and using those incidents to exercise prior restraint on someone who uses their arms lawfully is, of course, the tactic of tyrants and mindless hoplophobes.

Or the people killed because someone has the gun at home, and goes home in a rage, gets it, and kills someone .

Ibid.

Or the little kids who pick up a loaded gun and set it off, killing some other little kid.

Ibid.

Or the fact that the criminals guns start their career as proper kosher weapons of self-defence.

Irrelevant red herring. It's illegal to use a gun to commit a crime. It's illegal to POSSESS a gun with the INTENT to commit a crime. We don't ban things because they MIGHT be used in a crime, otherwise we'd ban cars and ski masks.

[Seth]

Good points, Mistermack.
Thank you for them.

In the USA, the greatest numbers of deaths by firearm is suicide. In the USA, there are 12,000 hand gun suicides each year. Normally, a would-be suicide has an impulse to kill him/herself, which lasts for a limited period - a few minutes to a couple of hours. If they can find a convenient means of killing themselves in that period, there is a death. If not, the person passes the critical period (in most cases) and there is no death.

So what? It's their life, they can end it if they like. My right to effective tools of lawful self defense is not to be determined by the actions of a suicidal person.

If a person keeps a hand gun at home, that is an invitation to suicide, and the hand gun owner is putting his/her family at terrible risk.

Nah. The 260 million guns in US homes prove you're full of shit.

If the idiot insists on owning an hand gun anyway, it should be locked away where kids cannot get hold of it.

Safe storage is always a good idea when there are kids around, but safe storage and availability for quick and effective self defense are by no means mutually exclusive, as I've demonstrated with the YouTube video.

Of course, if that happens, the hand gun is pretty much useless as a defense against a home invader, anyway.

You really are stupid, aren't you. The options for physically securing a handgun from kid's hands while leaving it quickly accessible in an emergency are numerous. The best option is gun safety training for children, which should be mandatory in public and private schools, starting in the first grade and continuing through high school graduation with increasing skills like marksmanship, maintenance and the law, so that on graduation the graduate with no criminal record gets his/her concealed carry permit along with a government-issued handgun and military battle rifle that they are required to keep maintained and remain proficient with and which they must bring with them if and when they are called to duty in the Militia. When they reach age 45 and are honorably discharged from the Unorganized Militia, their personal arms are granted to them as their property with the thanks of a grateful nation.

But locking it away very substantially reduces the risk of someone getting killed.

And doing it the right way still substantially increases the odds that the one who does get killed is the criminal home invader.

60% of all suicides in the USA are by hand gun. In other countries, such deaths are very few and far between, and the lack of hand guns no doubt saves lives by the thousands.

So what? Who cares? If they don't have a gun, they'll hang themselves, or jump off a bridge, or take a lethal dose of drugs or off themselves in any number of ways. If they want to die, let them die. Don't presume that you can infringe my right to armed self defense because someone wants to kill themself and handguns are a convenient method. Again you make an asinine argument for banning guns, as usual.

[Blind groper]

The best option is gun safety training for children, which should be mandatory in public and private schools, starting in the first grade and continuing through high school graduation with increasing skills like marksmanship, maintenance and the law, so that on graduation the graduate with no criminal record gets his/her concealed carry permit along with a government-issued handgun and military battle rifle that they are required to keep maintained and remain proficient with and which they must bring with them if and when they are called to duty in the Militia. .

To quote someone from the last post : You really are stupid, aren't you?


What a wonderful way to give violent criminals their start in life. Trained to kill, and given weapons as well. Wow!

America's homicide rate, which is already at least four times as high as the truly civilised nations, will go through the roof. Ten times as high perhaps. Another 25,000 dead people each year. Shot by criminals trained and equipped by the government. Just think of all the immigrants who will want to come to America, to join the "land of opportunity".

[Seth]

The best option is gun safety training for children, which should be mandatory in public and private schools, starting in the first grade and continuing through high school graduation with increasing skills like marksmanship, maintenance and the law, so that on graduation the graduate with no criminal record gets his/her concealed carry permit along with a government-issued handgun and military battle rifle that they are required to keep maintained and remain proficient with and which they must bring with them if and when they are called to duty in the Militia. .

To quote someone from the last post : You really are stupid, aren't you?


What a wonderful way to give violent criminals their start in life. Trained to kill, and given weapons as well. Wow!

America's homicide rate, which is already at least four times as high as the truly civilised nations, will go through the roof. Ten times as high perhaps. Another 25,000 dead people each year. Shot by criminals trained and equipped by the government. Just think of all the immigrants who will want to come to America, to join the "land of opportunity".

Er, what part of "no criminal record" was unclear to you? Since every citizen over the age of 18 years of age ALREADY has the right to keep and bear arms, nothing is lost by training them thoroughly and then giving them a CCW and government-issued arms when they graduate from high school successfully. As opposed to gun control and registration, requiring children and young adults to receive firearms and marksmanship training as a mandatory part of the school curriculum and issuing them arms upon successful graduation from that program IS something that Congress absolutely has the power to do as incident to their power to "raise and support armies" in Article 1, Section 8 and is directly authorized by Clause 16, "To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;"

Works for Switzerland very nicely.

And, using a government-issued firearm in a crime would be a federal offense which ought to bring 25 years in a federal pen with no parole.

So, once again your arguments are shit.

[Blind groper]

Er, what part of "no criminal record" was unclear to you?

You are talking of training and equipping every young person. Criminal records very often do not exist at the time young criminals 'graduate' from high school. This is to a large extent because judges keep letting the little bastards off. But the point is that you want them to be given guns while they are still young and in their most violent period. Statistics (which I know you fail to understand) show that the most violent offenders are young males between 16 and 30 years of age. Just when you want to give them guns. Real stupid, as I said.

Nor can you compare Switzerland and the USA. The Swiss do not have the conditioning from a very young age about how wonderful guns are, and, unlike you Seth, do not salivate like Pavlov's dogs when they hold one. Nor do they make hand guns available to every person who wants one. They train young people for the military, and the weapons they retain are for the military, to be stored in a secure cabinet at home. Not for hiding in their back pocket so they can pull it out when drunk and murder someone.