An independent Scotland?

[Ace]

On the matter of Scotland leaving the union. As an Englishman, I'm in full support of it. I've been reading about this sorta thing a while back. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... tland.html

[Pappa]

I'm all for more autonomy for Scotland, whether that be by independence or greater powers. Regardless of the ultimate scale of our governments, I'd always prefer as much power as possible to exist at the regional level. In Wales we've seen some really welcome improvements due to devolution and, given a referendum, I think most people in Wales would vote in favour of more devolved powers.

[Jason]

Not being a resident, I'm not directly concerned, but as a Stuart descendent, I'd be shocked if my countrymen kept those usurpers.

As a Plantagenet I'm inclined to invade those rebellious Scots, violently oppress them, and claim 'first rights' on all their women. As a Lindsay, however, I'm inclined to remove my pants and underwear, gird my kilt about my loins, and get piss drunk.

I'm a house divided.

So gird your loins and get piss drunk on English ale ?

A compromise then: I'll get piss drunk in London drinking Irish ale (Kilkenny) while wearing naught but a kilt. UK forever!

[Audley Strange]

I'm all for more autonomy for Scotland, whether that be by independence or greater powers. Regardless of the ultimate scale of our governments, I'd always prefer as much power as possible to exist at the regional level. In Wales we've seen some really welcome improvements due to devolution and, given a referendum, I think most people in Wales would vote in favour of more devolved powers.

To be honest, I'm not a nationalist, but the SNP have been, here where I live at least, effective. It's been a long while since we last had a referendum in Scotland and I think that most people are less interested in leaving the U.K. than they are being ruled by a bunch of conservatives and pet libdems that practically no one in the entire country voted for. I think that the traditional support for the Labour Party up here dwindled because of Blair's third way and that the SNP increase was originally a protest against what people up here seen as labour's lack of interest. Whether that's true or not remains to be seen, but the street I am on used to have serious violence at closing time every weekend for about 14 years. The SNP got in, changed the streetlights and put some cops on the street for about an hour on a Friday and Saturday night and it's dropped to nothing.

This kind of thing makes people think that the SNP is party which actually does things rather than pay lip service to the nation.

[Jason]

Scottish Independence.

[Santa_Claus]

As for Scotland, I would not take it as certain that it will remain in the EU as of the date of independence. You might well end up with a situation in the run-up to the vote where there are critical issues left unsettled, and Scottish membership is contingent on those being resolved. Or that Scotland is provisionally accepted, but much important detail remains to be worked out. I think those are the most likely scenarios, and the currency issue could still be at heart of these.

Of course their will be many critical issues (on EU Membership) left unsettled at the time of the Vote - why do you expect otherwise? It's not as if Scotland becomes independent the day after! The EU (or anyone else) is not going to spend time and money negotiating exact terms for something that might not actually happen. That would be bizarre...............Salmond knows this and for him it is a good thing as kicks the arguments over specifics past the referendum date........and until then he can simply say that the Scottish people will decide post independence (via own Govt / further Referendums), subject to the conditions at the time. Spain will do what Germany wants - all the Scots have to do is make some nice noices about the English outposts being an anachronism and the Spainiards would be happy enough anyway. Besides, they don't want to lose the fishing.


In regard to both Countries being stronger in the Union - if that really is the case then no reason why the Scotland could not enter into a Political and economic Union with England! (both as independent states)- unless there is something really special about being led by London? Of course that may well mean that the English need to pool some sovereignty - but what's good for the goose...............

[Pappa]

I'm all for more autonomy for Scotland, whether that be by independence or greater powers. Regardless of the ultimate scale of our governments, I'd always prefer as much power as possible to exist at the regional level. In Wales we've seen some really welcome improvements due to devolution and, given a referendum, I think most people in Wales would vote in favour of more devolved powers.

To be honest, I'm not a nationalist, but the SNP have been, here where I live at least, effective. It's been a long while since we last had a referendum in Scotland and I think that most people are less interested in leaving the U.K. than they are being ruled by a bunch of conservatives and pet libdems that practically no one in the entire country voted for. I think that the traditional support for the Labour Party up here dwindled because of Blair's third way and that the SNP increase was originally a protest against what people up here seen as labour's lack of interest. Whether that's true or not remains to be seen, but the street I am on used to have serious violence at closing time every weekend for about 14 years. The SNP got in, changed the streetlights and put some cops on the street for about an hour on a Friday and Saturday night and it's dropped to nothing.

This kind of thing makes people think that the SNP is party which actually does things rather than pay lip service to the nation.

The same could be said for Plaid in Wales. As there's not majority support for independence in Wales, Plaid are left as the only party that offer "regionalist" policies. They're left-of-centre in general so they're not nationalist in the coloquial sense.

[klr]

On the subject of football: I think Scotland might have long since gained its independence if it didn't have its own national soccer and rugby teams while part of the UK. Just a thought ....

[Audley Strange]

I'm all for more autonomy for Scotland, whether that be by independence or greater powers. Regardless of the ultimate scale of our governments, I'd always prefer as much power as possible to exist at the regional level. In Wales we've seen some really welcome improvements due to devolution and, given a referendum, I think most people in Wales would vote in favour of more devolved powers.

To be honest, I'm not a nationalist, but the SNP have been, here where I live at least, effective. It's been a long while since we last had a referendum in Scotland and I think that most people are less interested in leaving the U.K. than they are being ruled by a bunch of conservatives and pet libdems that practically no one in the entire country voted for. I think that the traditional support for the Labour Party up here dwindled because of Blair's third way and that the SNP increase was originally a protest against what people up here seen as labour's lack of interest. Whether that's true or not remains to be seen, but the street I am on used to have serious violence at closing time every weekend for about 14 years. The SNP got in, changed the streetlights and put some cops on the street for about an hour on a Friday and Saturday night and it's dropped to nothing.

This kind of thing makes people think that the SNP is party which actually does things rather than pay lip service to the nation.

The same could be said for Plaid in Wales. As there's not majority support for independence in Wales, Plaid are left as the only party that offer "regionalist" policies. They're left-of-centre in general so they're not nationalist in the coloquial sense.

I'm sure it could. You know I was speaking to quite a few English folks when I was abroad a couple of weeks ago and a lot of them despise being ruled from London too, which would seem to suggest that perhaps regional government should be more important than we generally consider it. Yet the voting rates in local elections are often utterly dismal even in comparison to the Popularity Contest that is Westminster.

[Pappa]

Yeah, that's a shame, but I think it's understandable. Town and county councilors do hold some power, but it's not really the kind of power that's significant to voters. Plus, they all seem to be utter wankers, more interested in scoring points playing politics than improving their local area. There are exceptions, I'm sure, but my experience of council meetings has been dismal and I get the feeling they're like that almost everywhere.

[Santa_Claus]

Most likely that most Scots after independence will feel dissapointed that in fact nothing has really changed.

But I guess that's the price of being a Pleb (or a McPleb).

[ronmcd]

Fly-by link spam for your delectation:
http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/ne ... 4165427310

EU official sounds note of caution over entry
Published on 26 October 2012

David Leask

THE European Commission's vice-president has cautioned against making "categorical" claims an independent Scotland or Catalonia would not be a member of the EU.
Joaquín Almunia – a fierce opponent of Catalan independence – said it would "not be honest" to say a breakaway region would be stuck outside the EU if it was independent.
Mr Almunia also insisted citizens of the EU could not be stripped of their rights just because their territory separated from a member state.

[Svartalf]

Fly-by link spam for your delectation:
http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/ne ... 4165427310

EU official sounds note of caution over entry
Published on 26 October 2012

David Leask

THE European Commission's vice-president has cautioned against making "categorical" claims an independent Scotland or Catalonia would not be a member of the EU.
Joaquín Almunia – a fierce opponent of Catalan independence – said it would "not be honest" to say a breakaway region would be stuck outside the EU if it was independent.
Mr Almunia also insisted citizens of the EU could not be stripped of their rights just because their territory separated from a member state.

The Spaniard is disingenuous... maybe Catalans would retain Spanish citizenship... or not, but they would not get full rights unless the new state WASs a full member of the EU, and I doubt the neighboring states would give them full rights either if they came abroad, say, to find cheaper medical care.

and of course, even if the new country is qualified to enter the EU and accepted, it still is highly unlikely that less than 2 years would pass between independence and actual admittance, and likely a lot longer, and in the meanwhile, the country may be a preferred trade partner, it's still not a Union member.

[Santa_Claus]

Fly-by link spam for your delectation:
http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/ne ... 4165427310

EU official sounds note of caution over entry
Published on 26 October 2012

David Leask

THE European Commission's vice-president has cautioned against making "categorical" claims an independent Scotland or Catalonia would not be a member of the EU.
Joaquín Almunia – a fierce opponent of Catalan independence – said it would "not be honest" to say a breakaway region would be stuck outside the EU if it was independent.
Mr Almunia also insisted citizens of the EU could not be stripped of their rights just because their territory separated from a member state.

The Spaniard is disingenuous... maybe Catalans would retain Spanish citizenship... or not, but they would not get full rights unless the new state WASs a full member of the EU, and I doubt the neighboring states would give them full rights either if they came abroad, say, to find cheaper medical care.

and of course, even if the new country is qualified to enter the EU and accepted, it still is highly unlikely that less than 2 years would pass between independence and actual admittance, and likely a lot longer, and in the meanwhile, the country may be a preferred trade partner, it's still not a Union member.

I think folks seem to be under the impression that Scotland (or Catalonia) would become independent the day after a referendum. They won't - therefore the issue of EU membership will simply be one of those (many) things that will need to be sorted out once independence becomes certain (cant sort everything out in advance - especially not for something that might not happen). Could take a year or could take 5 - but in the meantime the new "Countries" would continue within the EU, as stll technically / legally part of the parent country.

How the Parent Country, the EU and other EU states will deal with EU membership for the new state will depend on how freindly the seperation is and will be connected to a myriad of other matters as simply another bargaining chip / subject for discussion to come up with a solution that works for everyone. Won't be a 5 minute thing, might even be ascension talks and timescale - but that doesn't really matter as sooner or later the new State will be in the EU as a full member on the same terms as everyone else. The only fly in the ointment for a new small country in the EU is that get treated exactly the same as the other small EU countries.........

[Thinking Aloud]

Pure coincidence, but spotted this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-20048521 on the subject of who gets to vote.