Can i buy you a coffee?

[Coito ergo sum]

Apelust approves: http://atheismplus.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2239

[Coito ergo sum]

But think carefully, chum. The odds are good that she’s not going to respond well. And if you keep bugging women just because they happen to be within eyesight, then you send the none-too-subtle message that “A woman showing up in public means that she’s fair game.” Which means she’s not a person, but an antelope in a game preserve.
There are those who think you should never ever approach a stranger in public; I’m not one of them. But if you take the attitude of, “Hey, anything could happen, might as well take my shot,” then you are being a dick to women. What you should do is size up the situation: is this a space conducive to strangers talking to each other? Does she look involved in something else? Does her body language say she’s receptive? Would this friendly approach look threatening if she had no clue as to your intent? (Because despite your peppy smile, she does not.)
If all of those clues don’t add up, then fucking walk away. Give her the privilege of being a person, and not some slot machine for you to take your shot at.

http://www.theferrett.com/ferrettworks/ ... -on-women/

So, it is o.k. to ask a stranger in public if she wants coffee, as long as you size up the situation, assess whether it is conducive to strangers to talk to each other ... (lol -- like ....like... a fucking coffee house with comfy chairs arranged for people to easily chat like they are in a living room...), assess her body language or whether she is involved in something else?

Well - most men do this analysis in their head in some way before they approach a woman. They want to up the odds of it being successful, if it's a pick up attempt. But, the real issue here is "what if the guy is wrong?" Does it become harassment if he goofed on his assessment? If so, he can never reliably make this approach, because people are notoriously bad at judging other people's intent from their body language, etc.

The most interesting blurb from this asshole is "Would this friendly approach look threatening if she had no clue as to your intent?" This is Apeluster logic epitomized. This guy/gal suggests that men assess whether a friendly approach "would look threatening if she had no clue as to your intent." News flash: she NEVER knows what your intent is, and she NEVER can have any real "clue" what your intent is -- SINCE YOU HAVEN'T FUCKING TALKED TO HER YET.

The long and short of it is -- this author's recipe is an "always wrong" rule, unless the approach works. It's a "you pays your money and you takes your chances" approach. Whether the guy is a dick or not here is fully dependent on her reaction. If she turns him down and doesn't like it, then he is wrong because he should have assessed her properly and he didn't.

And, I will add again - that many of us don't talk to women with one thing in mind. Some of us like people, and will talk to women socially without any "expectation" that it burgeon into romance. It's nice to just sit at a fucking coffee shop and have a chat over a coffee. That's what a cafe is. That is what a coffee shop is fucking for. It's not JUST for going there and sitting there and being by yourself.

And, then there is the ridiculous "Does she look like she is involved in something else?" There is another one that just basically makes this a "no approach" rule. They're ALWAYS involved in something else. Who the fuck sits in a coffee shot looking around for some stranger to come talk to them, waving them over, or just staring into space doing nothing? People read something, write something, listen to something, whatever. If you have to wait for a woman to be sitting there in a daze, then we might as well stop with the fucking pretense that there are "ways" to do this without it being harassment. There aren't. There is only "guessing right" and finding that the woman happens to be happy to talk to you. If she isn't, then you've harassed her. That's the recipe this douche is selling.

[Coito ergo sum]

And even if you’re really nice about it, recognize that hundreds of men have done this before, and this may not go over well. If she rejects you coldly, she is not a bitch. That’s on you, chum. You took a shot, knowing full well you might irritate her, and lo you got exactly what you deserved. Don’t tell yourself the story that “I was just trying to buy her a present!” because you were not. You were bothering a woman in a clear attempt to get something from her.

As I said, I don’t think you should never approach a stranger in public. But I think you should carefully consider it, because some people do think you should never approach a stranger in public, and the rest usually don’t like to be bothered. So the hitting on people should be a rarity, that time when all the planets align.

http://www.theferrett.com/ferrettworks/ ... -on-women/

What the fuck? This dickbag thinks that an offer for coffee is "bothering a woman in a clear attempt to get something from her." But, he's not saying "you should never approach a stranger in public." Really? Because if you believe the former, you sure as fuck SHOULD be saying the latter.

And, the "at that time when all the planets align" nonsense just means -- when you guess the woman's receptiveness correctly. Basically, until she's waving you in for a landing with airport landing lights, holding a sign "there's a party in my pants" -- don't both talking to her.

This is bull. Being friendly is not harassment. Period.

[Bella Fortuna]

Apelust approves: http://atheismplus.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2239

Do you think creepers are ever going to get it?

[Coito ergo sum]

Apelust approves: http://atheismplus.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2239

Do you think creepers are ever going to get it?

These people have serious issues. I wonder if in their world it's o.k. to say "good morning" to a woman that you pass while walking down the street. Or, since she doesn't know my intent and may well have had men talking to her for no reason many times before, if I should just pass by silently, avert my eyes, and not say anything?

[Sean Hayden]

Coito, it defies explanation. I don't think you can reason with someone that believes a creeper is a person that offers to buy a stranger a cup of coffee.

It's a joke.

[Tero]

Bad plan, buying coffee.

You approach the woman and appeal to her charity. Would you please buy me a coffee? Look charming.

That way she can take you for the bum you are, even before you have sex.

[Sean Hayden]

[hadespussercats]

Bad plan, buying coffee.

You approach the woman and appeal to her charity. Would you please buy me a coffee? Look charming.

That way she can take you for the bum you are, even before you have sex.

Let me buy you a coffee, Tero. You're a bum, but you make me laugh!

[devogue]

A coffee house, though, is a social gathering place, only without alcohol. People go there to sit down and even talk with each other, and it is definitely a place where people who don't know each other strike up conversations.

Really? I've been out and about and stopped in a coffee shop for a quick cuppa and to read the paper. I don't want to socialise, I don't want a conversation - I just want a nice cup of coffee and a bit of peace to read my paper.

Sure, some people want that. Other people also want to socialize. Some people want one thing on one day, and another thing on another day. Single people who would like to meet someone tend to be more open to the socializing whereas folks who aren't in the market for a date may be more likely to just want to sit by themselves.

Okay - I am concentrating on the people who just want to sit by themselves. A single customer having a quiet coffee and reading a book.

While certainly there is a chance a man will become irate if his offer of coffee is refused (or offer of any introduction), I doubt that is anything but a rarity.

And that chance (as I put it "might happen") is enough to make a woman unnecessarily nervous and uncomfortable as she rejects his approach. She should be left alone to drink her coffee and read her paper, as I would want to be left alone to drink my coffee and read my paper.

Some people want that in bars, too. Where are the appropriate places?

Places are neither appropriate or inappropriate - situations are (with the odd exception like a singles bar; then you have a sign over your head)

And, the same would be the case anywhere, even in "singles bars," and such. Men have been known to become upset at being rebuffed, and so have women. If it is the "some guy might get pissed off" rationale for "backing off", then the rule would be as applicable anywhere as it is in a coffee shop.

A woman's presence in a "singles bar" suggests that she is motivated to hit it off with someone - she is in effect standing up to the line and saying "I am inviting attention and interest". While there is still the issue of dealing with rebuffed men who act like assholes, she cannot complain that an approach has been made because the situation and setting obviously encourages and justifies such approaches.

A singles bar implies a "pick up" joint -- but, what about just a regular town bar. Is she implying, by being there, that she is open to conversation?

I still don't get why a coffee shop, which is a social place, is not a place where it is o.k.to say hi. Note, that in the examples given in the article -- no pickups were involved. It was just "can I buy you a cup of coffee" and then the offeror was going to talk about jesus and had to be sent packing. Is it really something that is verboten to strike up conversations in public places?

As I said before, it's a question of situation rather than location - as someone said earlier, they might chat to a barrista, or someone in the queue while waiting to get their coffee (or glass of wine), but their intention might then be to sit down and have their coffee with no further interaction. Their desire, their wish for the next 20 minutes of their time is for peace, solitude and enough space in which to enjoy their book. In that situation it is rude to interrupt and decide that your desires and wishes are more important or more desirable than theirs.

Sitting quietly in a coffee bar with a coffee and a book (or whatever) does not justify any approach.

ANY approach? Really? Holy cow. I met a nice girl some years back in a bookstore. She was reading a book and i walked up and said hi. We talked for a while and she gave me her phone number. We went out on some dates. Had she told me "no" would I have done something wrong? Did I do something wrong whether the answer was yes or no?

Was she reading the book or browsing for a book? Was it likely she had reached chapter 16? No.

You're both shopping, you took a chance and in this instance it paid off. She happened to be open to chatting with you and things worked out between you. Excellent. But not everyone is like that, and not everyone likes being chatted to by strangers - it's not a phobia, or a lack of social skills: some people simply want others to butt out and leave them alone, to mind their own business. You might find that depressing, but it is just as valid an important an outlook as yours is extrovert, warm and gregarious. It's as simple as this - you want to chat to people, but some people don't want to be chatted to. You are therefore always going to be the one who has to tread carefully because by definition they're not going to make a move of any sort.

And, I'm still not following it, even with the explanation you're giving Dev. From your perspective of agreeing with the article, are you suggesting that if a man is single and heads down to the Caribou Coffee shop on a Saturday afternoon to kill some time, and he sees a woman that he fancies sitting there reading a book or magazine or something, that it is improper for him to open a conversation by saying, "excuse me, but I wonder if I could buy you a cup of coffee?" Or, what about "Hello, my name is ______...." and strike up a conversation? Is this "harassment?" Is this improper?

Of course there are all kinds of nuances and subtleties in human behaviour, but let's say that the woman in this scenario hasn't looked at the man, smiled at the man, winked at the man, licked her lips or whatever at the man - she hasn't even noticed the man. That's a perfectly likely, valid scenario, isn't it?

So the woman is reading her book (perhaps studying) or magazine (taking the single, precious, free 20 minutes in her entire day) while sipping her coffee. She has given absolutely no signal, no invitation to anyone to impinge on her space or time. But the man is just "killing time" - he's a good bloke, a nice fellow, but although he sees her reading and she evidently looks quite content, he decides to ignore her contentment and her choice and he impinges upon her right to privacy and her own personal enjoyment. He says "excuse me, but I wonder if I could buy you a cup of coffee?" He hasn't harassed her, abused her, mocked her - he has been perfectly pleasant - but he has also impinged upon her right to privacy, and asserted his own selfish desire over the woman's possible desire for peace and quiet.

I find this rather puzzling. She's not in private. She is in a coffee shop, and you're suggesting that her "right to privacy" has been invaded here? We have a right to privacy in a public place not to have people talk to us? i have never heard of that convention, not in the least.

And, as for the gestures or complexities, like lip licking, that may be involved -- that is why I left that out -- because the hypothetical was to be just as you described. She did nothing to "invite" me over. But, to flesh out the complexities -- they are far more often misinterpreted than anything else. What is the invite? If she had looked up, seen me looking at her and smiled, would that be an "invitation" or is she just being nice? Or, was that just a nervous smile, and she is actually now worried that I've been looking at her, waiting for some sign, which I've now misinterpreted as an invite?

She has the right to personal privacy within a public space - she has the right to peace and quiet to read her book. If you go to a public library, you are obviously in a public place. If you sit down and read a book, find yourself drawn in to the characters and the world the author has created, and then someone comes over to interrupt your pleasure to chat about something, then they are being inconsiderate and rude, aren't they? What's the difference between that and someone sitting in a coffee shop?

Now, imagine our man had read the article you linked to before going to the cafe - he might ask himself.."shit, how many other blokes have done the same thing?...how many others have tried to buy her coffee?...how many times has she had to say no?...I wonder if she has been called an ungrateful bitch, or a snooty fucker...too good for me, huh?...even if that's just happened once, that would have hurt, right?...so if I chip in as Mister 138 to ask and she says no, then she has that moment of fear waiting for possible vitriol...then she's going to feel awkward (even if I don't) sitting a few seats away from me in silence...hurriedly drinking her coffee just to get the fuck out of an awkward situation that I created..."

Wow -- I can't imagine that people can't talk to each other. You've turned an invite to sit and talk into an invasion of privacy. When did this happen to our culture? I'm really puzzled at this....

I was at a local pub a few weeks back with a friend. I am married now, and I'm old, somewhat out of shape. We were sitting there, and it was like an outdoor cafe, not a "singles bar" at all, just a brew pub - it allowed cigar smoking around outdoor seating, and we were just having a few pints and enjoying some guy time out away from the wives. While we were sitting there, a young woman, late 20s, came up and introduced herself and we struck up a conversation. She sat down next to me and we were chatting and it became obvious that she was "interested." Neither one of us had looked at her or even known she was in the bar. Improper? She came up to (me, specifically, because she sat next to me and she and I had the bulk of the conversation). Had I done the same to her and a friend of hers sitting there, that would have been improper? I would have invaded their privacy? Was my privacy invaded?

No, but your friend's was - you were both there to enjoy some time out away from your wives, just a few pints away from the bustle of home life, and a stranger interrupted your conversation and ended up leaving him with the butt end of any conversation.

But all of this goes beyond mere rudeness to the issue of personal comfort and happiness.

The woman in a coffee bar, wanting peace, interrupted by someone wanting to chat, worried about whether they will become abusive if they are politely rebuffed, having to endure the ensuing awkward silence even if the person is fine about it...all that is one example.

Here's one involving me:

Every Thursday and Friday night I get the bus back from work. We only have one car and Mrs Dev needs it those days, so the bus is handy. The journey only takes about twenty minutes. The bus is public space, but I don't get on it for a chat - I get on it to get home. I enjoy the bus because it's usually almost empty and I can usually read a chapter or two of my book.

A few months ago I got on the bus on a Friday night - I had my book and a nice bottle of wine for when I got home. There were four young lads on the bus, around the age of twenty. I sat down to read my book and I was lost in it for a few minutes when I heard one of the lads addressing me:

"Hey bro, how are you?"
"Good - how are you?
"Cool bro...cool"
"Good stuff"
"Bro, give me a drink of your wine."
"No."
"Oh go on, bro!"
"No. It's mine."
"Aw don't be like that bro."
"Leave me alone."
"Is it nice wine"
...silence...
"Fuckin' gives us the wine, bro!"
...silence...
"You fuckin' faggott cocksucker. Fuck off out of our country etc..."

As you can imagine, I didn't feel very good after that. I tried to read, but I couldn't. I was worried about getting a kicking by them. I didn't invite anyone to talk to me - I was talked to. I endured 15 more minutes on that bus with muttering and shit behind me, trying to watch my back without turning round.

I never wanted to talk to them, I never wanted to be talked to. Sometimes the driver wants to talk to me or other passengers but I have no interest in what they have to say. I don't care about their lives. I don't want to make small talk, I just want to sit and read my book for twenty goddamn minutes after working a ten hour shift. That time belongs to me - it's not my problem if someone else doesn't like reading books and has got bored sitting on the bus with nothing to do. Leave me alone.

Now if I see a crowd of young men getting on the bus I have the pleasure of shitting myself and cowering for twenty minutes as well, hoping they don't get bored and see me as someone worth taking the piss out of.

Now, back to the lone lady in the coffee shop - how many blokes buy cups of coffee for blokes? How many men try to be "friendly" with men? I have no doubt there are women who are chatted up, offered coffee, whatever else, because I have seen it myself - yes, a polite "no" normally does the trick, but even if 1 in 100 men act like pricks when turned down, how do you tell which one is the prick?

That's why I think it's good to raise consciousness about this sort of thing - we don't have to walk around in a paranoid, "potential rapist", festering shell of angst and social whalebone corsets, but just a wee bit more empathy, a wee bit more understanding of how our own desires might impinge on the desires of others might be worth considering.

Nothing in the situation I presented, and nothing in the situation presented in the article, indicated a lack of empathy, did it? How so? It wasn't as if the hypotheticals (although my brew pub story is actually true) involved a woman who for all appearances wanted to be left alone or said "no" and then had the guy keep on her.

You're suggestion is that if a woman is sitting at Starbucks on one of the comfy chairs, and a guy who is also in Starbucks and fancies her, that it is improper for him to talk to her, even politely, unless she licks her lips at him or does something else that indicates interest? I find this to be completely alien -- there have been many times in my life where I've found myself talking to women, in conversations that I initiated, where I didn't even have the intent to "hook up" or "pick up" on them. I was just hanging out and so were they.

It seems that this article creates a presumption that we can't even be friendly with each other.

If she is minding her own business and reading a book, writing a letter, texting someone, working on a laptop, listening to music or whatever leave her alone. She is otherwise engaged and to interrupt her would be rude.

I would think a coffee shop is the "time and place" for impromptu introductions. If not there, where? The supermarket? Bookstore? Are people limited to bars in order to start conversations? And, if bars are o.k., then why not a coffee shop (which is just a bar that doesn't serve alcohol).

The supermarket, bookstore, bar or coffeshop are all fine as long as the situation and time is right

That can't effectively be known in advance. Humans are really bad at reading signals. And, you may think a woman smiled at you and is "hot to trot" and she may have merely thought of something funny.

She's drinking her coffee and reading a book - that's a really good signal that she wants to drink her coffee and read her book.

- in the coffeeshop it could be a couple of men on a sofa and two women opposite all chilling out and sparks fly. I know that sounds completely unempirical (because it is), but people hit it off all the time - mutual conversations begin mutually - two people are good to talk, so they do -

That is one way, for sure. Another is that a person says "hi, my name is ______"

it might just be friendly, a quick word of apology after accidentally bumping in to someone in a bar might lead to a more interesting conversation in a church hall - who knows? There are fluid, intricate, nuanced ways of communicating and interacting - the one on one "can I buy you a coffee?" scenario is as blunt as it gets; yeah it might work the odd time, but more often than not it will lead to minor embarrassment or full on abuse.

I don't agree with your distinction. Of course there are gradations of nuance, and all sorts of things can happen. Sometimes someone just throws out a comment, and the other person latches on to it and a conversation starts. Like you could be at the coffee shop and something interesting comes on the t.v. and the guy might say, "wow! did you see that?" And, then a conversation ensues. But, he still committed the same "invasion of privacy" as if he asked her if he could buy her a coffee. She would still have had the same "right" to be left unapproached.

Yes, she would. Why should she care what was on the TV, or if President Obama has just walked in? Why is her response or opinion of any concern to anyone who doesn't know her? She is a stranger living her own life with her own desires, needs, likes and dislikes which are absolutely none of your business. The only thing you need to know is that she has chosen to give her full attention to the book she is reading and the coffee she is sipping. Your wants, needs and desires mean nothing to her, so keep them to yourself. If you decide to butt in to her life you are being completely presumptuous, having decided that your presence will make life so much better for her.

I'm glad you chimed in Dev, because I wasn't sure if anyone would pick up that side of the issue, and I am very interested to see how you're thinking this through, because, honestly, I'm dumbfounded by the article. I am shocked that according to this, if I introduce myself to a woman in a coffee shop, I'm harassing her.

As I said, it's not harassment - it's impinging on privacy, and creating possible unnecessary tension, embarrassment and strain.

I used to think I was crazy for thinking that our culture had gotten really soft and almost silly with political correctness. The idea that asking a woman (or a man) if one could buy them a cup of coffee would be an invasion of privacy or create unnecessary tension, embarrassment and strain, is something I'll have to think on for a while. It makes no sense to me.

The article, of course, did say that it was harassment -- it was harassment, per the article, because supposedly women are subjected to this all the time and they hate it. But, I definitely don't hold you to the article, as you are of course entitled to your own take on it.

I completely disagree that it is harassment (unless a rebuttal is ignored), but in certain situations it is rude, selfish and thoughtless.

[Coito ergo sum]

A coffee house, though, is a social gathering place, only without alcohol. People go there to sit down and even talk with each other, and it is definitely a place where people who don't know each other strike up conversations.

Really? I've been out and about and stopped in a coffee shop for a quick cuppa and to read the paper. I don't want to socialise, I don't want a conversation - I just want a nice cup of coffee and a bit of peace to read my paper.

Sure, some people want that. Other people also want to socialize. Some people want one thing on one day, and another thing on another day. Single people who would like to meet someone tend to be more open to the socializing whereas folks who aren't in the market for a date may be more likely to just want to sit by themselves.

Okay - I am concentrating on the people who just want to sit by themselves. A single customer having a quiet coffee and reading a book.

Sitting there reading a book doesn't necessarily mean one is opposed to someone saying hello. Nobody can read minds.

While certainly there is a chance a man will become irate if his offer of coffee is refused (or offer of any introduction), I doubt that is anything but a rarity.

And that chance (as I put it "might happen") is enough to make a woman unnecessarily nervous and uncomfortable as she rejects his approach. She should be left alone to drink her coffee and read her paper, as I would want to be left alone to drink my coffee and read my paper.

Some people want that in bars, too. Where are the appropriate places?

Places are neither appropriate or inappropriate - situations are (with the odd exception like a singles bar; then you have a sign over your head)

Well, I'll grant you that. But, merely sitting alone in a coffee shop is not a clear indicator that one is not to be asked any questions.

And, the same would be the case anywhere, even in "singles bars," and such. Men have been known to become upset at being rebuffed, and so have women. If it is the "some guy might get pissed off" rationale for "backing off", then the rule would be as applicable anywhere as it is in a coffee shop.

A woman's presence in a "singles bar" suggests that she is motivated to hit it off with someone - she is in effect standing up to the line and saying "I am inviting attention and interest". While there is still the issue of dealing with rebuffed men who act like assholes, she cannot complain that an approach has been made because the situation and setting obviously encourages and justifies such approaches.

A singles bar implies a "pick up" joint -- but, what about just a regular town bar. Is she implying, by being there, that she is open to conversation?

I still don't get why a coffee shop, which is a social place, is not a place where it is o.k.to say hi. Note, that in the examples given in the article -- no pickups were involved. It was just "can I buy you a cup of coffee" and then the offeror was going to talk about jesus and had to be sent packing. Is it really something that is verboten to strike up conversations in public places?

As I said before, it's a question of situation rather than location - as someone said earlier, they might chat to a barrista, or someone in the queue while waiting to get their coffee (or glass of wine), but their intention might then be to sit down and have their coffee with no further interaction. Their desire, their wish for the next 20 minutes of their time is peace, solitude and enough space in which to enjoy their book. In that situation it is rude to interupt and decide that your desires and wishes are more important or more desirable than theirs.

Their intention might be to stand in line without having anyone talk to them either. The barrista's intention may be to serve coffee without conversing with patrons. I'm not sure why you think that, as opposed to sitting on a chair in social gathering area where people generally converse with each other, is any different. Don't I get my desires and wishes to not be talked to in line respected? Or, is it only those who sit down to enjoy their coffee?

It's not a question of anyone's wishes and desires to be more important. I often want to walk down the street without someone talking to me, but I've had it happen many times for many reasons. Are their "wishes and desires" more important than mine? I never want someone to knock on my door and ask me anything if I don't know them. Happens now and again, though. Door to door salesmen, etc. I hate it when people call my phone when I don't want them to.

There are plenty of people who want to go to a bar and sit there an enjoy a drink in peace, just to think. Your rule would prohibit me from saying hello to someone sitting in a bar alone because I can't be sure their wishes and desires don't conflict with mine.

Sitting quietly in a coffee bar with a coffee and a book (or whatever) does not justify any approach.

ANY approach? Really? Holy cow. I met a nice girl some years back in a bookstore. She was reading a book and i walked up and said hi. We talked for a while and she gave me her phone number. We went out on some dates. Had she told me "no" would I have done something wrong? Did I do something wrong whether the answer was yes or no?

Was she reading the book or browsing for a book? Was it likely she had reached chapter 16? No.

She was sitting and reading. I did not ask what chapter, and what does it matter?

You're both shopping, you took a chance and in this instance it paid off. She happened to be open to chatting with you and things worked out between you. Excellent. But not everyone is like that, and not everyone likes being chatted to by strangers - it's not a phobia, or a lack of social skills: some people simply want others to butt out and leave them alone, to mind their own business.

There is no way to know which one the woman in the bookstore was before I talked to her. Was she open to chatting? How the heck would I know without asking? She was, yes. But her reaction can't be the determinative factor as to whether what I did was acceptable or not, because I can't possibly know that in advance.

You might find that depressing, but it is just as valid an important an outlook as yours is extrovert, warm and gregarious. It's as simple as this - you want to chat to people, but some people don't want to be chatted to. You are therefore always going to be the one who has to tread carefully because by definition they're not going to make a move of any sort.

All that being accepted as true -- are you saying that whether my approach to the woman in the bookstore was acceptable or not is dependent on whether she ultimately finds it acceptable? In other words, if she says "no" and feels bothered about it, then I shouldn't have asked in the first place, but if she says "yes" and chats with me comfortably then I'm all fine and dandy? Surely you see the difficulty there? I mean -- if you say she had some right to expect never to be talked to, if she didn't want to be talked to, then whether she was open to it or not, it was wrong of me to approach her. All I could be is lucky that she happened to be friendly, right?

And, I'm still not following it, even with the explanation you're giving Dev. From your perspective of agreeing with the article, are you suggesting that if a man is single and heads down to the Caribou Coffee shop on a Saturday afternoon to kill some time, and he sees a woman that he fancies sitting there reading a book or magazine or something, that it is improper for him to open a conversation by saying, "excuse me, but I wonder if I could buy you a cup of coffee?" Or, what about "Hello, my name is ______...." and strike up a conversation? Is this "harassment?" Is this improper?

Of course there are all kinds of nuances and subtleties in human behaviour, but let's say that the woman in this scenario hasn't looked at the man, smiled at the man, winked at the man, licked her lips or whatever at the man - she hasn't even noticed the man. That's a perfectly likely, valid scenario, isn't it?

So the woman is reading her book (perhaps studying) or magazine (taking the single, precious, free 20 minutes in her entire day) while sipping her coffee. She has given absolutely no signal, no invitation to anyone to impinge on her space or time. But the man is just "killing time" - he's a good bloke, a nice fellow, but although he sees her reading and she evidently looks quite content, he decides to ignore her contentment and her choice and he impinges upon her right to privacy and her own personal enjoyment. He says "excuse me, but I wonder if I could buy you a cup of coffee?" He hasn't harassed her, abused her, mocked her - he has been perfectly pleasant - but he has also impinged upon her right to privacy, and asserted his own selfish desire over the woman's possible desire for peace and quiet.

I find this rather puzzling. She's not in private. She is in a coffee shop, and you're suggesting that her "right to privacy" has been invaded here? We have a right to privacy in a public place not to have people talk to us? i have never heard of that convention, not in the least.

And, as for the gestures or complexities, like lip licking, that may be involved -- that is why I left that out -- because the hypothetical was to be just as you described. She did nothing to "invite" me over. But, to flesh out the complexities -- they are far more often misinterpreted than anything else. What is the invite? If she had looked up, seen me looking at her and smiled, would that be an "invitation" or is she just being nice? Or, was that just a nervous smile, and she is actually now worried that I've been looking at her, waiting for some sign, which I've now misinterpreted as an invite?

She has the right to personal privacy within a public space - she has the right to peace and quiet to read her book. If you go to a public library, you are obviously in a public place. If you sit down and read a book, find yourself drawn in to the characters and the world the author has created, and then someone comes over to interupt your pleasure to chat about something, when then they are being inconsiderate and rude, aren't they? What's the difference between that and someone sitting in a coffee shop?

Libraries have rules against talking in the reading areas.

The difference is that people are allowed to talk all they want in a coffee shop, and library posts signs that say "shhhhhhh....people are reading...be quiet."

And, if she has a right to personal privacy in a public space, then you ARE saying that people can never appropriately walk up to her and say hi and attempt to socialize. Don't say you're not, because you are. You are because there is no way you or I can know if Jane Doe sitting in a chair at the coffee shop is agreeable to be talked to by you or I. She may be agreeable to someone, but just not find you or me very palatable or interesting, who knows? But, even if she gives the "signs" you're talking about -- we never know -- we can't know. People can't read with any degree of certainty what a woman's glance or look or possible smile means. Even lip licking -- is she just wetting her lips. Is she nervous. Is she giving a sign?

The point is, yes she has a right to be let alone if she wishes it. But, when you're in a public space, there is nothing improper in other people coming up to you and asking for help, opening conversations, giving invitations. Etc. A polite "please leave me be" of some sort is the appropriate response. If attention continues after it is communicated that it is not wanted, then it can be harassment or improper attention. But, if you are saying that everyone in the coffee shop or bar/lounge has some right to privacy in a public space that would prohibit any inquiries unless wanted, then you're creating a social rule that can't be followed. Nobody can know what you or a woman sitting alone in a coffee shop or bar wants.

Now, imagine our man had read the article you linked to before going to the cafe - he might ask himself.."shit, how many other blokes have done the same thing?...how many others have tried to buy her coffee?...how many times has she had to say no?...I wonder if she has been called an ungrateful bitch, or a snooty fucker...too good for me, huh?...even if that's just happened once, that would have hurt, right?...so if I chip in as Mister 138 to ask and she says no, then she has that moment of fear waiting for possible vitriol...then she's going to feel awkward (even if I don't) sitting a few seats away from me in silence...hurriedly drinking her coffee just to get the fuck out of an awkward situation that I created..."

Wow -- I can't imagine that people can't talk to each other. You've turned an invite to sit and talk into an invasion of privacy. When did this happen to our culture? I'm really puzzled at this....

I was at a local pub a few weeks back with a friend. I am married now, and I'm old, somewhat out of shape. We were sitting there, and it was like an outdoor cafe, not a "singles bar" at all, just a brew pub - it allowed cigar smoking around outdoor seating, and we were just having a few pints and enjoying some guy time out away from the wives. While we were sitting there, a young woman, late 20s, came up and introduced herself and we struck up a conversation. She sat down next to me and we were chatting and it became obvious that she was "interested." Neither one of us had looked at her or even known she was in the bar. Improper? She came up to (me, specifically, because she sat next to me and she and I had the bulk of the conversation). Had I done the same to her and a friend of hers sitting there, that would have been improper? I would have invaded their privacy? Was my privacy invaded?

No, but your friend's was - you were both there to enjoy some time out away from your wives, just a few pints away from the bustle of home life, and a stranger interrupted your conversation and ended up leaving him with the butt end of any conversation.

How do you possibly with any degree of logic say my privacy was not invaded but his was? That woman had no idea who we were or what we wanted. Either it was improper for her to come up to me, or it wasn't. Which was it? Roll the film and stop it at 1 second prior to her reaching our table. What do you tell her right then - before she talks to me, not after -- is it improper or not? Or, is it Schrodinger's Come-on, where it's both proper and improper until she actually talks to me, and then it collapses into some level of propriety or impropriety?

But all of this goes beyond mere rudeness to the issue of personal comfort and happiness.

The woman in a coffee bar, wanting peace, interrupted by someone wanting to chat, worried about whether they will become abusive if they are politely rebuffed, having to endure the ensuing awkward silence even if the person is fine about it...all that is one example.

You have no idea if she's worried, do you?

And, again -- aren't you saying "it's always improper to approach someone you don't know in a coffee shop, because you can never know in advance what they're open to?" If not, please clarify.

Here's one involving me:

Every Thursday and Friday night I get the bus back from work. We only have one car and Mrs Dev needs it those days, so the bus is handy. The journey only takes about twenty minutes. The bus is public space, but I don't get on it for a chat - I get on it to get home. I enjoy the bus because it's usually almost empty and I can usually read a chapter or two of my book.

Like on an airplane, I can see that as being your intent. And, if someone starts up a conversation, I would imagine you'd say "no offense, but I'm trying to read."

On airplanes, I invariably have the person next to me start talking to me -- almost invariably. Sometimes I want to, sometimes I don't. Is it ever proper for them to do so? Under what circumstances? (and don't say "if you are open to it" because unless I communicate that to them, then how would they know? And, how would I know it's o.k. with them to communicate that to them?) Savvy?

A few months ago I got on the bus on a Friday night - I had my book and a nice bottle of wine for when I got home. There were four young lads on the bus, around the age of twenty. I sat down to read my book and I was lost in it for a few minutes when I heard one of the lads addressing me:

"Hey bro, how are you?"
"Good - how are you?
"Cool bro...cool"
"Good stuff"
"Bro, give me a drink of your wine."
"No."
"Oh go on, bro!"
"No. It's mine."
"Aw don't be like that bro."
"Leave me alone."
"Is it nice wine"
...silence...
"Fuckin' gives us the wine, bro!"
...silence...
"You fuckin' faggott cocksucker. Fuck off out of our country etc..."

As you can imagine, I didn't feel very good after that. I tried to read, but I couldn't. I was worried about getting a kicking by them. I didn't invite anyone to talk to me - I was talked to. I endured 15 more minutes on that bus with muttering and shit behind me, trying to watch my back without turning round.

Irrelevant. Obviously, saying hi to someone is different than harassing them. Clearly, they're wrong for bothering you after you said you didn't want to talk.

I never wanted to talk to them, I never wanted to be talked to. Sometimes the driver wants to talk to me or other passengers but I have no interest in what they have to say. I don't care about their lives. I don't want to make small talk, I just want to sit and read my book for twenty goddamn minutes after working a ten hour shift. That time belongs to me - it's not my problem if someone else doesn't like reading books and has got bored sitting on the bus with nothing to do. Leave me alone.

That is why, like when I'm on a plane (I don't ride buses) if my neighbor wants to chat, I will just say 'I'd rather not talk, I'm reading."

Based on your summation, it's improper for them ever to say hello in the first place.

Now if I see a crowd of young men getting on the bus I have the pleasure of shitting myself and cowering for twenty minutes as well, hoping they don't get bored and see me as someone worth taking the piss out of.

Now, back to the lone lady in the coffee shop - how many blokes buy cups of coffee for blokes? How many men try to be "friendly" with men? I have no doubt there are women who are chatted up, offered coffee, whatever else, because I have seen it myself - yes, a polite "no" normally does the trick, but even if 1 in 100 men act like pricks when turned down, how you tell which one is the prick?

According to the ladies here on Ratz, it doesn't happen very often at all.

So, no communications then? Ever? Because they can never know whose the prick, right?

That's why I think it's good to raise consciousness about this sort of thing - we don't have to walk around in a paranoid, "potential rapist", festering shell of angst and social whalebone corsets, but just a wee bit more empathy, a wee bit more understanding of how our own desires might impinge on the desires of others might be worth considering.

Nothing in the situation I presented, and nothing in the situation presented in the article, indicated a lack of empathy, did it? How so? It wasn't as if the hypotheticals (although my brew pub story is actually true) involved a woman who for all appearances wanted to be left alone or said "no" and then had the guy keep on her.

You're suggestion is that if a woman is sitting at Starbucks on one of the comfy chairs, and a guy who is also in Starbucks and fancies her, that it is improper for him to talk to her, even politely, unless she licks her lips at him or does something else that indicates interest? I find this to be completely alien -- there have been many times in my life where I've found myself talking to women, in conversations that I initiated, where I didn't even have the intent to "hook up" or "pick up" on them. I was just hanging out and so were they.

It seems that this article creates a presumption that we can't even be friendly with each other.

If she is minding her own business and reading a book, writing a letter, texting someone, working on a laptop, listening to music or whatever leave her alone. She is otherwise engaged and to interrupt her would be rude.

When are people not otherwise engaged? You see people sitting there staring into space a lot? You said, "The supermarket, bookstore, bar or coffeeshop are all fine as long as the situation and time is right." When is it right?

See that's where I'm not getting you at all. Nobody can know the time is right. And, if the woman licks her lips and smiles, and she was really nervous and not open to conversation, then what? You've invaded her privacy? That sounds reasonable to you?

I would think a coffee shop is the "time and place" for impromptu introductions. If not there, where? The supermarket? Bookstore? Are people limited to bars in order to start conversations? And, if bars are o.k., then why not a coffee shop (which is just a bar that doesn't serve alcohol).

The supermarket, bookstore, bar or coffeshop are all fine as long as the situation and time is right

That can't effectively be known in advance. Humans are really bad at reading signals. And, you may think a woman smiled at you and is "hot to trot" and she may have merely thought of something funny.

She's drinking her coffee and reading a book - that's a really good signal that she wants to drink her coffee and read her book.

You just said above that the coffeeshop is fine. People always read something in coffee shops. If reading is the sign that she doesn't want any inquiries, then no inquiries are, at bottom, possible in a coffeeshop and it's not fine. Heck, even standing in line waiting for your coffee holding a book or newspaper -- clearly, all you want to do is get your coffee and go read your reading material right? On what basis can someone justify an inquiry then?

- in the coffeeshop it could be a couple of men on a sofa and two women opposite all chilling out and sparks fly. I know that sounds completely unempirical (because it is), but people hit it off all the time - mutual conversations begin mutually - two people are good to talk, so they do -

That is one way, for sure. Another is that a person says "hi, my name is ______"

it might just be friendly, a quick word of apology after accidentally bumping in to someone in a bar might lead to a more interesting conversation in a church hall - who knows? There are fluid, intricate, nuanced ways of communicating and interacting - the one on one "can I buy you a coffee?" scenario is as blunt as it gets; yeah it might work the odd time, but more often than not it will lead to minor embarrassment or full on abuse.

I don't agree with your distinction. Of course there are gradations of nuance, and all sorts of things can happen. Sometimes someone just throws out a comment, and the other person latches on to it and a conversation starts. Like you could be at the coffee shop and something interesting comes on the t.v. and the guy might say, "wow! did you see that?" And, then a conversation ensues. But, he still committed the same "invasion of privacy" as if he asked her if he could buy her a coffee. She would still have had the same "right" to be left unapproached.

Yes, she would. Why should she care what was on the TV, or if President Obama has just walked in? Why is her response or opinion of any concern to anyone who doesn't know her? She is a stranger living her own life with her own desires, needs, likes and dislikes which are absolutely none of your business. The only thing you need to know is that she has chosen to give her full attention to the book she is reading and the coffee she is sipping. Your wants, needs and desires mean nothing to her, so keep them to yourself. If you decide to butt in to her life you are being completely presumptuous, having decided that your presence will make life so much better for her.

So, no starting conversations in coffee shops then? And, even on the street. Someone is concentrating on walking. On an airplane if they're just sitting there thinking, no saying hi, because you don't know them, right? Even if someone is not engaged in any activity, as far as you or I know, they may be deep in thought and you have no right to interrupt them.

When, then, is the "time right" as you tried to say above? Answer: never. The only time that is right under your system of social convention here is when the person saying hello or offering a cup of coffee is lucky enough to have guessed right about the intentions of the person he or she approached. Other than that, it was an improper communication and never should have been made in the first place. Yes? Or, have I misunderstood you?

I'm glad you chimed in Dev, because I wasn't sure if anyone would pick up that side of the issue, and I am very interested to see how you're thinking this through, because, honestly, I'm dumbfounded by the article. I am shocked that according to this, if I introduce myself to a woman in a coffee shop, I'm harassing her.

As I said, it's not harassment - it's impinging on privacy, and creating possible unnecessary tension, embarrassment and strain.

I used to think I was crazy for thinking that our culture had gotten really soft and almost silly with political correctness. The idea that asking a woman (or a man) if one could buy them a cup of coffee would be an invasion of privacy or create unnecessary tension, embarrassment and strain, is something I'll have to think on for a while. It makes no sense to me.

The article, of course, did say that it was harassment -- it was harassment, per the article, because supposedly women are subjected to this all the time and they hate it. But, I definitely don't hold you to the article, as you are of course entitled to your own take on it.

I completely disagree that it is harassment (unless a rebuttal is ignored), but in certain situations it is rude, selfish and thoughtless.

Don't say "certain" situations. The logic of your analysis requires that no communications be made, because one can never know the person's intent or desires with any degree of certainty. Your rule of social convention bars any impromptu communications, based on the fact that someone might be reading, listening to music, or deep in thought, or just resting. Your lip licking and looking/smiling "signs" don't change that because there is no way, as a practical matter, to know in advance what those things mean, as a nervous smile can easily be mistaken for a come-hither smile.

[JimC]

As long as you don't ask me in an elevator...

[Bella Fortuna]

Jesus, I'll go out with you, already - enough with the avalanche of text!!

[devogue]

Well that's what I think.

If I'm reading a book I want to read my book. Leave me alone.

You presume that a conversation with you is more in my interest than reading my book.

We both disagree.

So there we are.

Although admittedly you will get more sex in the long run.

[SteveB]

Jesus, I'll go out with you, already - enough with the avalanche of text!!

Is that all it takes?