Can i buy you a coffee?

[Coito ergo sum]

http://www.theferrett.com/ferrettworks/ ... -a-coffee/

I found this article linked with approval on the Skepchick blog.

The article basically recounts a fictional set of events where a guy is at Starbucks minding his own business and begins to get inundated with requests from women to buy him coffee. Each time it is a ruse to talk about Jesus, and he begins to feel bothered by the requests. The analogy is then made to what women "face" from men asking them if they would like a coffee in order to open up conversation and "hit on" them. The article is supposed to ring home to men how awful this is for women and why it is "harassment."

The comments on Skepchick are all ringing endorsements of the article, naturally.

A couple of things came to mind, though. it seems to me that if the article's thesis is correct, then just asking to buy a woman coffee in a Starbucks is now "harassment." It is now improper to try to start a conversation with a woman in a public place, even if politely done.

I really don't get why people would glowingly compliment the writer of that article. Maybe i "just don't get it," but I couldn't help but thinking that the author, when being asked by Jesus freaks if he wanted a coffee, he could just say "no thank you," and leave it at that. The offer of a person in a coffee shop to buy another person coffee is an offer to open up a conversation. The implicit, customary thing about it is that if I ask you if i can buy you a coffee, and you say yes, then you'll talk with me for a modest or reasonable period of time. If you say no, then it means I am not to proceed further.

There is nothing, in my view, harassing about such a request. And, since we live in a society in which we are all independent actors without mind-reading powers, the only way we can find out if someone wants to talk to us is to ask in some politely customary way. We can't know in advance what another person is open to. And, lots of people do want to interact with other people, and lots of people go to bars and coffee houses for the express purpose of meeting new people. how can that happen without being allowed to ask others if we can buy them a drink or a coffee? or, some other polite opening?

Can someone explain this to me? I mean -- I am sure Apelusters and FtBers and Skepchicks all know exactly where the line is drawn here. And, they will say "oh, we're not saying you can't ask to buy someone a cup of coffee...." -- I'm willing to grant them that -- so, if you folks are not saying you can't ask someone to buy a cup of coffee for them, then what are you saying? The encounters that the author of the article set forth seemed polite and unobtrusive. They asked if he wanted coffee and he accepted the coffee. just because the conversation they wanted was not what he assumed would occur doesn't make it harassment. What exactly is improper about those events?

Anyway....

[Bella Fortuna]

Not until you learn to capitalise "I". <--- whoops, already have a coffee there...

[Coito ergo sum]

Not until you learn to capitalise "I". <--- whoops, already have a coffee there...

LOL - having trouble with my left shift key -- damn thing...

But, seriously -- did you read that article? I'm puzzled. All the glowing reviews, but as a guide for behavior in these circumstances, I can't figure out what the author is saying beyond "women don't like it when you ask them if they want coffee when they are sitting in coffee houses," so don't do that. If that really is what the guy is saying, then I think he's full of it.

[Ian]

I for one wish women would've offered to buy me coffee more often when I was single. I might actually have drank some of that disgusting stuff if it meant being hit on by an attractive (non-evangelical) women.
Too many complaints from these folks, methinks. They wouldn't like it much if guys never offered to buy them a drink.

[Kristie]

I for one wish women would've offered to buy me coffee more often when I was single. I might actually have drank some of that disgusting stuff if it meant being hit on by an attractive (non-evangelical) women.
Too many complaints from these folks, methinks. They wouldn't like it much if guys never offered to buy them a drink.

I'd love to buy you a daiquiri some time.
Screw the coffee.

[Animavore]

American women are quite forward. They're not like Irish women. They'll just come up and say, "Mind if I sit here?" and start talking to you. Then they'll start telling you they love your accent. Pure harassment. Can't just sip my beer in peace. What a cruel, oppressive world I live in.

[Coito ergo sum]

I for one wish women would've offered to buy me coffee more often when I was single. I might actually have drank some of that disgusting stuff if it meant being hit on by an attractive (non-evangelical) women.
Too many complaints from these folks, methinks. They wouldn't like it much if guys never offered to buy them a drink.

See, you're a prime offender, illustrated by the article. The article points out that men don't see it the same way, because women offering us coffee is a rarity, so we view it as a compliment, whereas women get it all the time, so when we ask to buy them coffee, it's harassment.

I don't get it. Are we never to ask? Are we to wait until they make eye-contact and wave us over? What is the deal?

[Kristie]

I for one wish women would've offered to buy me coffee more often when I was single. I might actually have drank some of that disgusting stuff if it meant being hit on by an attractive (non-evangelical) women.
Too many complaints from these folks, methinks. They wouldn't like it much if guys never offered to buy them a drink.

See, you're a prime offender, illustrated by the article. The article points out that men don't see it the same way, because women offering us coffee is a rarity, so we view it as a compliment, whereas women get it all the time, so when we ask to buy them coffee, it's harassment.

I don't get it. Are we never to ask? Are we to wait until they make eye-contact and wave us over? What is the deal?

I have never had a man offer to buy me coffee.

[Sean Hayden]

I don't live in that world. I'd never offer to buy a stranger a coffee and I don't understand people that would. I also don't understand how anyone could complain about it unless they were joking.

I hate to say it sounds like complaint bragging, but based on what little I know of the weird world of buying strangers shit they can get for themselves, that's what it sounds like.

[Bella Fortuna]

I for one wish women would've offered to buy me coffee more often when I was single. I might actually have drank some of that disgusting stuff if it meant being hit on by an attractive (non-evangelical) women.
Too many complaints from these folks, methinks. They wouldn't like it much if guys never offered to buy them a drink.

See, you're a prime offender, illustrated by the article. The article points out that men don't see it the same way, because women offering us coffee is a rarity, so we view it as a compliment, whereas women get it all the time, so when we ask to buy them coffee, it's harassment.

I don't get it. Are we never to ask? Are we to wait until they make eye-contact and wave us over? What is the deal?

I have never had a man offer to buy me coffee.

Me neither, or a drink. Well, I mean a stranger coming up to me and asking that by way of introduction. I've never been hit on in that way by someone I don't know, come to think of it. Or I haven't recognised it, in any case...

[Coito ergo sum]

I think we need an Apelust rulebook -- the do's and don'ts of modern social interaction. When is is appropriate to start a conversation with someone you don't know? Like -- if you're waiting for a flight at the airport, are you allowed to say "hi" to the woman two stools down? If there are other options available, is it harassment to sit next to a woman when one could sit 3 seats away?

Traditionally, in a bar, if a guy tells the bartender to bring a drink to a woman sitting a little ways away, the etiquette is, if the woman refuses the drink, then she's not interested. If she accepts the drink, he is allowed to walk over and talk with her. That seemed simple enough and common sensical. Now, according folks like Skepchicks and Apelusters, that would be harassment.

[devogue]

I think it's a pretty good article and, while not a perfect analogy, it does give some insight in to a world I'm unfamiliar with.

I would disagree with CES's opinion that a woman could just give the coffee guy a polite "no" and that would be the end of it. There will always be an asshole who gets upset because his offer is refused, leading to verbal abuse or worse - the fact that that might happen (shades of Schrodinger trigger warning...) is enough to make a woman unnecessarily nervous and uncomfortable. There are times, places, situations, resources and venues for hooking up with the opposite sex - unless there is a blatant come-on in "regular" situations men and women should back off each other.

(Hey, look at this everybody! Atheism Plus stuff without the devastation, whining, crying, sobbing, ad homs, vitriol, bile, spite, abuse and hatred. )

[Cormac]

I for one wish women would've offered to buy me coffee more often when I was single. I might actually have drank some of that disgusting stuff if it meant being hit on by an attractive (non-evangelical) women.
Too many complaints from these folks, methinks. They wouldn't like it much if guys never offered to buy them a drink.

See, you're a prime offender, illustrated by the article. The article points out that men don't see it the same way, because women offering us coffee is a rarity, so we view it as a compliment, whereas women get it all the time, so when we ask to buy them coffee, it's harassment.

I don't get it. Are we never to ask? Are we to wait until they make eye-contact and wave us over? What is the deal?

Of course, the other unspoken boolox is that this definitely does not happen to ALL women.

A woman that gets offered that much coffee will be the ultimate girl next door, pretty and sexy, but not so gorgeous that the average guy doesn't bother. Not so dolled up that she looks like one of those appalling clothes horse spoiled brats from one of those top model shows. Not some political oddball whose dress and attitude screams that she doesn't want anyone to approach her.

No. It would be a good looking, seemingly friendly, interesting person who seems like she might talk to you. Particulalry when you're a young guy, the risk of rejection is quite scary, and it is unlikely that guys would go around propositioning every single girl they'd meet.

So either these women are the most drop amazing women to have ever walked the earth, they are talking complete and utter bullshit.

[Coito ergo sum]

I think it's a pretty good article and, while not a perfect analogy, it does give some insight in to a world I'm unfamiliar with.

I would disagree with CES's opinion that a woman could just give the coffee guy a polite "no" and that would be the end of it. There will always be an asshole who gets upset because his offer is refused, leading to verbal abuse or worse - the fact that that might happen (shades of Schrodinger trigger warning...) is enough to make a woman unnecessarily nervous and uncomfortable. There are times, places, situations, resources and venues for hooking up with the opposite sex - unless there is a blatant come-on in "regular" situations men and women should back off each other.

(Hey, look at this everybody! Atheism Plus stuff without the devastation, whining, crying, sobbing, ad homs, vitriol, bile, spite, abuse and hatred. )

A coffee house, though, is a social gathering place, only without alcohol. People go there to sit down and even talk with each other, and it is definitely a place where people who don't know each other strike up conversations.

While certainly there is a chance a man will become irate if his offer of coffee is refused (or offer of any introduction), I doubt that is anything but a rarity. And, the same would be the case anywhere, even in "singles bars," and such. Men have been known to become upset at being rebuffed, and so have women. If it is the "some guy might get pissed off" rationale for "backing off", then the rule would be as applicable anywhere as it is in a coffee shop.

And, I'm still not following it, even with the explanation you're giving Dev. From your perspective of agreeing with the article, are you suggesting that if a man is single and heads down to the Caribou Coffee shop on a Saturday afternoon to kill some time, and he sees a woman that he fancies sitting there reading a book or magazine or something, that it is improper for him to open a conversation by saying, "excuse me, but I wonder if I could buy you a cup of coffee?" Or, what about "Hello, my name is ______...." and strike up a conversation? Is this "harassment?" Is this improper?

I would think a coffee shop is the "time and place" for impromptu introductions. If not there, where? The supermarket? Bookstore? Are people limited to bars in order to start conversations? And, if bars are o.k., then why not a coffee shop (which is just a bar that doesn't serve alcohol).

I'm glad you chimed in Dev, because I wasn't sure if anyone would pick up that side of the issue, and I am very interested to see how you're thinking this through, because, honestly, I'm dumbfounded by the article. I am shocked that according to this, if I introduce myself to a woman in a coffee shop, I'm harassing her.

EDIT -- and Cormac, I think, is close to the truth -- two Ratz hotties -- Bella and Kristie both said they've never been offered coffee like this.

[Pappa]

I think it's a pretty good article and, while not a perfect analogy, it does give some insight in to a world I'm unfamiliar with.

I would disagree with CES's opinion that a woman could just give the coffee guy a polite "no" and that would be the end of it. There will always be an asshole who gets upset because his offer is refused, leading to verbal abuse or worse - the fact that that might happen (shades of Schrodinger trigger warning...) is enough to make a woman unnecessarily nervous and uncomfortable. There are times, places, situations, resources and venues for hooking up with the opposite sex - unless there is a blatant come-on in "regular" situations men and women should back off each other.

(Hey, look at this everybody! Atheism Plus stuff without the devastation, whining, crying, sobbing, ad homs, vitriol, bile, spite, abuse and hatred. )

What are those places? If you mean pubs/clubs or other "traditional" places for hooking up, they're not really the kind of places people will necessarily find a meaningful relationship. And.... what's a person to do if they see someone in Starbucks that, for whatever reason, they think might just be "the one"? Should they walk away and possibly forever regret their inaction?