Catholic Church silence dissent within the ranks.

[Svartalf]

For centuries, and before it was in fashion, Ireland had more monks than anywhere else in the Catholic sphere.

[Cormac]

For centuries, and before it was in fashion, Ireland had more monks than anywhere else in the Catholic sphere.

Yep, but far too independent of mind. Sometimes even heretical.

[Animavore]

See? Fr. Flannery is just following the ancient tradition

[Seth]

It is becoming increasingly likely that some kind of schism is coming.

It seems to me that the Irish temperament is not a natural match for authoritarian Roman Catholicism. The latter was imported to Ireland as part of a deal cut between the Vatican and Britain to end the penal laws in Ireland. The penal laws mixed up Catholicism with the liberation "movement", and this unnatural union finally seems to be breaking.

But don't worry your sensitive little mind about it, treacle.

I suppose you'll all go back to warring with spears and goat-carts and rubbing blue mud all over yourselves and Druidism and suchlike, the Irish being a very spiritual and religious people and all. Which is fine. I'm not saying that the Catholic church will continue to hold political sway in Ireland, and I'm fine with that, merely that Catholics and the church are going to be around for the foreseeable future, it being an enduring meme and all.

As for schisms, they've happened before, and will happen again, and still the Catholic church endures, in large part because, well, it's "catholic" in it's dogma and expects society to accept what they claim God has put forth by way of social and moral behavior rather than morphing the beliefs of the church to comport with popular opinion and cultural drift. In that regard, it's a good touchstone for all of society because it keeps us linked to a successful social system now including more than a billion people worldwide that has endured and been successful in preserving civilization for more than two thousand years, something which few other social systems, particularly including Marxism and Socialism, can claim.

If the "Flannarians" want to schism, I'm sure they won't be missed.

[Cormac]

It is becoming increasingly likely that some kind of schism is coming.

It seems to me that the Irish temperament is not a natural match for authoritarian Roman Catholicism. The latter was imported to Ireland as part of a deal cut between the Vatican and Britain to end the penal laws in Ireland. The penal laws mixed up Catholicism with the liberation "movement", and this unnatural union finally seems to be breaking.

But don't worry your sensitive little mind about it, treacle.

I suppose you'll all go back to warring with spears and goat-carts and rubbing blue mud all over yourselves and Druidism and suchlike, the Irish being a very spiritual and religious people and all. Which is fine. I'm not saying that the Catholic church will continue to hold political sway in Ireland, and I'm fine with that, merely that Catholics and the church are going to be around for the foreseeable future, it being an enduring meme and all.

As for schisms, they've happened before, and will happen again, and still the Catholic church endures, in large part because, well, it's "catholic" in it's dogma and expects society to accept what they claim God has put forth by way of social and moral behavior rather than morphing the beliefs of the church to comport with popular opinion and cultural drift. In that regard, it's a good touchstone for all of society because it keeps us linked to a successful social system now including more than a billion people worldwide that has endured and been successful in preserving civilization for more than two thousand years, something which few other social systems, particularly including Marxism and Socialism, can claim.

If the "Flannarians" want to schism, I'm sure they won't be missed.

Account for that billion please.

You might want to exclude all those who have excommunicated themselves by failing to accept the dogma of the church first...

[Seth]

It is becoming increasingly likely that some kind of schism is coming.

It seems to me that the Irish temperament is not a natural match for authoritarian Roman Catholicism. The latter was imported to Ireland as part of a deal cut between the Vatican and Britain to end the penal laws in Ireland. The penal laws mixed up Catholicism with the liberation "movement", and this unnatural union finally seems to be breaking.

But don't worry your sensitive little mind about it, treacle.

I suppose you'll all go back to warring with spears and goat-carts and rubbing blue mud all over yourselves and Druidism and suchlike, the Irish being a very spiritual and religious people and all. Which is fine. I'm not saying that the Catholic church will continue to hold political sway in Ireland, and I'm fine with that, merely that Catholics and the church are going to be around for the foreseeable future, it being an enduring meme and all.

As for schisms, they've happened before, and will happen again, and still the Catholic church endures, in large part because, well, it's "catholic" in it's dogma and expects society to accept what they claim God has put forth by way of social and moral behavior rather than morphing the beliefs of the church to comport with popular opinion and cultural drift. In that regard, it's a good touchstone for all of society because it keeps us linked to a successful social system now including more than a billion people worldwide that has endured and been successful in preserving civilization for more than two thousand years, something which few other social systems, particularly including Marxism and Socialism, can claim.

If the "Flannarians" want to schism, I'm sure they won't be missed.

Account for that billion please.

Not my job.

You might want to exclude all those who have excommunicated themselves by failing to accept the dogma of the church first...

Not my concern.

[Cormac]

It is becoming increasingly likely that some kind of schism is coming.

It seems to me that the Irish temperament is not a natural match for authoritarian Roman Catholicism. The latter was imported to Ireland as part of a deal cut between the Vatican and Britain to end the penal laws in Ireland. The penal laws mixed up Catholicism with the liberation "movement", and this unnatural union finally seems to be breaking.

But don't worry your sensitive little mind about it, treacle.

I suppose you'll all go back to warring with spears and goat-carts and rubbing blue mud all over yourselves and Druidism and suchlike, the Irish being a very spiritual and religious people and all. Which is fine. I'm not saying that the Catholic church will continue to hold political sway in Ireland, and I'm fine with that, merely that Catholics and the church are going to be around for the foreseeable future, it being an enduring meme and all.

As for schisms, they've happened before, and will happen again, and still the Catholic church endures, in large part because, well, it's "catholic" in it's dogma and expects society to accept what they claim God has put forth by way of social and moral behavior rather than morphing the beliefs of the church to comport with popular opinion and cultural drift. In that regard, it's a good touchstone for all of society because it keeps us linked to a successful social system now including more than a billion people worldwide that has endured and been successful in preserving civilization for more than two thousand years, something which few other social systems, particularly including Marxism and Socialism, can claim.

If the "Flannarians" want to schism, I'm sure they won't be missed.

Account for that billion please.

Not my job.

You might want to exclude all those who have excommunicated themselves by failing to accept the dogma of the church first...

Not my concern.

Grand so.

We can discount your grandiose claim to the existence of a billion Catholics, given that you're not willing to provide evidence or defend your wild claim.

[Cormac]

It is becoming increasingly likely that some kind of schism is coming.

It seems to me that the Irish temperament is not a natural match for authoritarian Roman Catholicism. The latter was imported to Ireland as part of a deal cut between the Vatican and Britain to end the penal laws in Ireland. The penal laws mixed up Catholicism with the liberation "movement", and this unnatural union finally seems to be breaking.

But don't worry your sensitive little mind about it, treacle.

I suppose you'll all go back to warring with spears and goat-carts and rubbing blue mud all over yourselves and Druidism and suchlike, the Irish being a very spiritual and religious people and all. Which is fine. I'm not saying that the Catholic church will continue to hold political sway in Ireland, and I'm fine with that, merely that Catholics and the church are going to be around for the foreseeable future, it being an enduring meme and all.

As for schisms, they've happened before, and will happen again, and still the Catholic church endures, in large part because, well, it's "catholic" in it's dogma and expects society to accept what they claim God has put forth by way of social and moral behavior rather than morphing the beliefs of the church to comport with popular opinion and cultural drift. In that regard, it's a good touchstone for all of society because it keeps us linked to a successful social system now including more than a billion people worldwide that has endured and been successful in preserving civilization for more than two thousand years, something which few other social systems, particularly including Marxism and Socialism, can claim.

If the "Flannarians" want to schism, I'm sure they won't be missed.

Account for that billion please.

Not my job.

You might want to exclude all those who have excommunicated themselves by failing to accept the dogma of the church first...

Not my concern.

Grand so.

We can discount your grandiose claim to the existence of a billion Catholics, given that you're not willing to provide evidence or defend your wild claim.

[Seth]

It is becoming increasingly likely that some kind of schism is coming.

It seems to me that the Irish temperament is not a natural match for authoritarian Roman Catholicism. The latter was imported to Ireland as part of a deal cut between the Vatican and Britain to end the penal laws in Ireland. The penal laws mixed up Catholicism with the liberation "movement", and this unnatural union finally seems to be breaking.

But don't worry your sensitive little mind about it, treacle.

I suppose you'll all go back to warring with spears and goat-carts and rubbing blue mud all over yourselves and Druidism and suchlike, the Irish being a very spiritual and religious people and all. Which is fine. I'm not saying that the Catholic church will continue to hold political sway in Ireland, and I'm fine with that, merely that Catholics and the church are going to be around for the foreseeable future, it being an enduring meme and all.

As for schisms, they've happened before, and will happen again, and still the Catholic church endures, in large part because, well, it's "catholic" in it's dogma and expects society to accept what they claim God has put forth by way of social and moral behavior rather than morphing the beliefs of the church to comport with popular opinion and cultural drift. In that regard, it's a good touchstone for all of society because it keeps us linked to a successful social system now including more than a billion people worldwide that has endured and been successful in preserving civilization for more than two thousand years, something which few other social systems, particularly including Marxism and Socialism, can claim.

If the "Flannarians" want to schism, I'm sure they won't be missed.

Account for that billion please.

Not my job.

You might want to exclude all those who have excommunicated themselves by failing to accept the dogma of the church first...

Not my concern.

Grand so.

We can discount your grandiose claim to the existence of a billion Catholics, given that you're not willing to provide evidence or defend your wild claim.

You can do whatever you want, but dismissing the claim just makes you look stupid and biased. You can certainly find ample independent evidence on the Internet with a few second's work if you care to do so.

[Cormac]

I suppose you'll all go back to warring with spears and goat-carts and rubbing blue mud all over yourselves and Druidism and suchlike, the Irish being a very spiritual and religious people and all. Which is fine. I'm not saying that the Catholic church will continue to hold political sway in Ireland, and I'm fine with that, merely that Catholics and the church are going to be around for the foreseeable future, it being an enduring meme and all.

As for schisms, they've happened before, and will happen again, and still the Catholic church endures, in large part because, well, it's "catholic" in it's dogma and expects society to accept what they claim God has put forth by way of social and moral behavior rather than morphing the beliefs of the church to comport with popular opinion and cultural drift. In that regard, it's a good touchstone for all of society because it keeps us linked to a successful social system now including more than a billion people worldwide that has endured and been successful in preserving civilization for more than two thousand years, something which few other social systems, particularly including Marxism and Socialism, can claim.

If the "Flannarians" want to schism, I'm sure they won't be missed.

Account for that billion please.

Not my job.

You might want to exclude all those who have excommunicated themselves by failing to accept the dogma of the church first...

Not my concern.

Grand so.

We can discount your grandiose claim to the existence of a billion Catholics, given that you're not willing to provide evidence or defend your wild claim.

You can do whatever you want, but dismissing the claim just makes you look stupid and biased. You can certainly find ample independent evidence on the Internet with a few second's work if you care to do so.

Highlighted the important bit.

In any case, you shored up your argument by making a claim as to the number of Catholics in the world. Unfortunately, the rules of the game hold that it is for you to ground the claim. You're refusing to do so. Fine, but that means that we can contentedly ignore your claims.

Thanks for playing.

[Seth]

Grand so.

We can discount your grandiose claim to the existence of a billion Catholics, given that you're not willing to provide evidence or defend your wild claim.

You can do whatever you want, but dismissing the claim just makes you look stupid and biased. You can certainly find ample independent evidence on the Internet with a few second's work if you care to do so.[/quote]

Highlighted the important bit.

In any case, you shored up your argument by making a claim as to the number of Catholics in the world. Unfortunately, the rules of the game hold that it is for you to ground the claim. You're refusing to do so. Fine, but that means that we can contentedly ignore your claims.

Thanks for playing.

[/quote]

There are no rules of the game. I made a claim. It happens to be true. If you dispute it, feel free to demonstrate that I'm incorrect. Otherwise you can just fuck off.

[Cormac]

There are no rules of the game. I made a claim. It happens to be true. If you dispute it, feel free to demonstrate that I'm incorrect. Otherwise you can just fuck off.

Seth, I like you. I'm only mucking around.

But you can't expect to be dismissive of others without getting some of the same back.

And in fairness, generally, if someone presents a statistic as evidence, generally, they point to a source.

[Seth]

There are no rules of the game. I made a claim. It happens to be true. If you dispute it, feel free to demonstrate that I'm incorrect. Otherwise you can just fuck off.

Seth, I like you. I'm only mucking around.

But you can't expect to be dismissive of others without getting some of the same back.

And in fairness, generally, if someone presents a statistic as evidence, generally, they point to a source.

Do you really dispute that there are a billion Catholics worldwide? I don't think so, I think you're just avoiding the issue, which is that the Catholic church isn't going away any time soon, even from Ireland. And being a private club, if you don't like the dogma, you have little choice but to fuck off somewhere else, so criticizing the church for "silencing dissent" by a member of the Catholic clergy, who has sworn obedience to the church and the Pope, sounds like a tempest in a teapot to me. Flannery is a malcontent and should be defrocked and if he wants to start his own religion, why, he can do so. Same with the liberal nuns who support birth control and abortion. They can hold any opinion they want, but they can't be Catholics if their opinions conflict with church precepts. It's just that simple.

[Cormac]

There are no rules of the game. I made a claim. It happens to be true. If you dispute it, feel free to demonstrate that I'm incorrect. Otherwise you can just fuck off.

Seth, I like you. I'm only mucking around.

But you can't expect to be dismissive of others without getting some of the same back.

And in fairness, generally, if someone presents a statistic as evidence, generally, they point to a source.

Do you really dispute that there are a billion Catholics worldwide? I don't think so, I think you're just avoiding the issue, which is that the Catholic church isn't going away any time soon, even from Ireland. And being a private club, if you don't like the dogma, you have little choice but to fuck off somewhere else, so criticizing the church for "silencing dissent" by a member of the Catholic clergy, who has sworn obedience to the church and the Pope, sounds like a tempest in a teapot to me. Flannery is a malcontent and should be defrocked and if he wants to start his own religion, why, he can do so. Same with the liberal nuns who support birth control and abortion. They can hold any opinion they want, but they can't be Catholics if their opinions conflict with church precepts. It's just that simple.

You understand that I am not a member of that private club.

I do have a problem with the rules of that private club, when that club and its leadership (who happen to be the leadership of a foreign, undemocratic statelet), reach out and commit conspiracy to pervert the course of justice in my country. I have a problem with the rules of that club, when they conspire to cover up the rape of children. I have a problem with it when it conspires to usurp this state - which it has since the foundation of this state.

When this happens, I take an interest, and I consider it my right to challenge their assertions, and my right to argue and lobby for the removal of any special rights that they enjoy - including the right to automatic charitable status, the right (therefore) not to have to submit public accounts, their abuse of diplomatic immunity, the indemnification of church bodies from financial liability for their crimes against children - and the limitation of their exposure to a relatively small amount of money (while the state shoulders the rest, I've a problem when the church then fails to hand over any appreciable portion of that money despite liquidating valuable property assets.

I take an interest when my hard earned money, paid in taxes, is paid over to the church to finance public schools that my children cannot attend without being indoctrinated. (I am one of the lucky few though - I have a non-denominational school about 8 miles from our house. There are two catholic national (public) schools between here and the non-denom school - that I contribute to out of my taxes - and yet they are allowed to exclude my children because they are not Catholic.

In short - their internal rules have real-world effects far beyond the fetid four walls of their churches, and I have every right to comment on, argue against, lobby against, and seek legislation against their internal rules.

As far as I am concerned, the Bishops are the representatives and agents of a foreign and hostile state.

[Pensioner]

There are no rules of the game. I made a claim. It happens to be true. If you dispute it, feel free to demonstrate that I'm incorrect. Otherwise you can just fuck off.

Seth, I like you. I'm only mucking around.

But you can't expect to be dismissive of others without getting some of the same back.

And in fairness, generally, if someone presents a statistic as evidence, generally, they point to a source.

Do you really dispute that there are a billion Catholics worldwide? I don't think so, I think you're just avoiding the issue, which is that the Catholic church isn't going away any time soon, even from Ireland. And being a private club, if you don't like the dogma, you have little choice but to fuck off somewhere else, so criticizing the church for "silencing dissent" by a member of the Catholic clergy, who has sworn obedience to the church and the Pope, sounds like a tempest in a teapot to me. Flannery is a malcontent and should be defrocked and if he wants to start his own religion, why, he can do so. Same with the liberal nuns who support birth control and abortion. They can hold any opinion they want, but they can't be Catholics if their opinions conflict with church precepts. It's just that simple.

You understand that I am not a member of that private club.

I do have a problem with the rules of that private club, when that club and its leadership (who happen to be the leadership of a foreign, undemocratic statelet), reach out and commit conspiracy to pervert the course of justice in my country. I have a problem with the rules of that club, when they conspire to cover up the rape of children. I have a problem with it conspires to usurp this state - which it has since the foundation of this state.

When this happens, I take an interest, and I consider it my right to challenge their assertions, and my right to argue and lobby for the removal of any special rights that they enjoy - including the right to automatic charitable status, the right (therefore) not to have to submit public accounts, their abuse of diplomatic immunity, the indemnification of church bodies from financial liability for their crimes against children - and the limitation of their exposure to a relatively small amount of money (while the state shoulders the rest, I've a problem when the church then fails to hand over any appreciable portion of that money despite liquidating valuable property assets.

I take an interest when my hard earned money, paid in taxes, is paid over to the church to finance public schools that my children cannot attend without being indoctrinated. (I am one of the lucky few though - I have a non-denominational school about 8 miles from our house. There are two catholic national (public) schools between here and the non-denom school - that I contribute to out of my taxes - and yet they are allowed to exclude my children because they are not Catholic.

In short - their internal rules have real-world effects far beyond the fetid four walls of their churches, and I have every right to comment on, argue against, lobby against, and seek legislation against their internal rules.

As far as I am concerned, the Bishops are the representatives and agents of a foreign and hostile state.

Fucking good post.