An independent Scotland?

[Svartalf]

I suspect you're smoking funny herb RC. A state sharing the same capital, govermental institution and laws as an existing member would not be a ''new state' by any stretch of the mind unless it actually demanded to be treated as such. Unlike Scotland, it would be a legitimate heir state.

[Red Celt]

The United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland is not a member state of the EU, either.

Like I said earlier, that's not the UK problem. We're not going to sign ourselves out of the EU.
If Scotland wants out, Scotland has to sort it out.

Will the rest of the UK actually be able to call itself the UK? Wales wasn't a kingdom, it was a principality. Northern Ireland didn't have a separate kingdom. The kingdoms that were united (and gave the UK its name) were England and Scotland. Without Scotland, it wouldn't be a united kingdom. It would be a kingdom and two colonised entities... which may well soon see the advantages of their own separate positions within the wider scope of Europe.

This, ladies and gentlemen, is what happens when you treat your own country with greater respect than the riff-raff you've been lording it over for hundreds of years. Some English people are calling for an English parliament... pfft... that's what Westminster has been for all this time.

All of this collective "Scotland is going to find it difficult to go it alone" sounds like an over-bearing parent trying to convince their teenage son or daughter that leaving home will be all so complicated, providing a list of reasons why it's much more sensible to stay living with mummy and daddy. There comes a point when you have to say "fuck the fuck off", go it alone... and just live with the consequences, whether they be good or bad. They will at least be the choices that are theirs to make, rather than those imposed by their parents.

[ronmcd]

If the advice is clear cut, I see no reason to withhold it.

Fine, if you agree that applies to every government who has received legal advice. (And I doubt its clear cut - legal advice rarely is)

[mistermack]

All very good.
Just sort it out, Alex. Sort out that the new UK is still in the EU.
Sort yourself out.
Then the UK parliament might pass a bill to split.
They're not going to do it until that is the case. That is 100 percent certain.

[ronmcd]

Ronmcd seems to be assuming that Scotland will AUTOMATICALLY be in the EU.

Hmm ... not sure I ever said that. I did say we are currently in, and so meet the criteria, and there is no current method to remove us.

No it won't. There is no automatic mechanism.

I didnt say there was.

And to imagine that it will happen without a formal vote is just pie in the sky. Nobody gets in without a formal vote.

Some new mechanism will have to be agreed. And that in itself will be a big deal, and require a unanimous vote. Assuming that this is just going to happen is wishful thinking.

They would have to apply, just like anybody else. And I don't see any quotes from Spain saying they will or will not block it. Nor France. Nobody knows

Yes, there is no precedent. That I did say.

[ronmcd]

Ronmcd seems to be assuming that Scotland will AUTOMATICALLY be in the EU.

No it won't. There is no automatic mechanism. And to imagine that it will happen without a formal vote is just pie in the sky. Nobody gets in without a formal vote.

Some new mechanism will have to be agreed. And that in itself will be a big deal, and require a unanimous vote. Assuming that this is just going to happen is wishful thinking.

They would have to apply, just like anybody else. And I don't see any quotes from Spain saying they will or will not block it. Nor France. Nobody knows

The same will presumably apply to the "new" country of The United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland.
.

If that's the case I see no obligation on the UK government to agree to seperation, until their continued membership is assured. In other words, the status quo will continue, till Scotland gets it all sorted out.

Indeed, similarly when Cameron wins an "out" referendum on leaving EU, the EU could stop them.

Aye, right!

[Cormac]

It is odd that there seems to be so much emotion from our English Ratz friends in relation to this topic. Why is this?

[klr]

It is odd that there seems to be so much emotion from our English Ratz friends in relation to this topic. Why is this?

No, I think the English are just having a quiet dig at the Scottish TBH.

It's going to be a long two years ...

[ronmcd]

The United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland is not a member state of the EU, either.

Like I said earlier, that's not the UK problem. We're not going to sign ourselves out of the EU.
If Scotland wants out, Scotland has to sort it out.

The problem that might arise isn't that the remainder of the UK would "sign out", but that the UK would not exist. GB would not exist, as it is a union of two states. UK would then not exist.

Scotland is not going to remove itself as a region from a single country. It is going (lets assume) to SPLIT a union of two countries.

I think things are considerably more complex for the rUK than Westminister would want to admit. My form opinion is all these issues, EU, successor states etc, will be decided on a political level and to the benefit of all. The rhetoric and claims and counterclaims are pre-referendum politics, after they will not be a problem. Agreements will be made between the countries and EU.

[ronmcd]

It is odd that there seems to be so much emotion from our English Ratz friends in relation to this topic. Why is this?

No, I think the English are just having a quiet dig at the Scottish TBH.

It's going to be a long two years ...

It would be interesting to go through threads like this and pick out all the "emotional" responses, and see on which side of the argument they fall

[mistermack]

The problem that might arise isn't that the remainder of the UK would "sign out", but that the UK would not exist. GB would not exist, as it is a union of two states. UK would then not exist.

Scotland is not going to remove itself as a region from a single country. It is going (lets assume) to SPLIT a union of two countries.

I think things are considerably more complex for the rUK than Westminister would want to admit. My form opinion is all these issues, EU, successor states etc, will be decided on a political level and to the benefit of all. The rhetoric and claims and counterclaims are pre-referendum politics, after they will not be a problem. Agreements will be made between the countries and EU.

That just sounds like wishing to me. Not a word about how it will happen.
Like I said, the house of commons doesn't need to do anything. The status quo exists, and until it's presented with the problems fully sorted out, it can continue as normal.

The Union can only be dissolved by parliament and they're not going to do that if it means that they have to re-apply to the EU.
And David Cameron is in a no-lose situation. Yes, he could preside over Scotland leaving, but that would make him Prime Minister of the new UK for as long as he likes.
And if Salmond loses the vote, he looks a winner.

He can't go wrong. The only bad thing would have been for Salmond to manufacture some reason for not holding the vote. That's why he didn't argue much about the terms.
Alex Salmond is now facing a mess if he wins, and a mess if he loses.
No wonder he's put it off to the last minute.

[Clinton Huxley]

If the advice is clear cut, I see no reason to withhold it.

Fine, if you agree that applies to every government who has received legal advice. (And I doubt its clear cut - legal advice rarely is)

Apparently, it will be clear cut in a year. Curious.

[Audley Strange]

It is odd that there seems to be so much emotion from our English Ratz friends in relation to this topic. Why is this?

They're shit scared that they end up in a Daily Mail reading Sainsbury's idealised Victorian Imperial conservotopia and are trying to cling on to anything that might stop it.

Can't say I blame them.

[Santa_Claus]

Of course Scotland could become an independent nation (it's geographically big enough, has enough natural resources and has enough of a population).

The question is only whether it will be more prosperous (and that only matters if that question is the most important matter)........my gut says that Scotland likely will be, simply because as a Nation they have more of a desire to act in the common good of their own people (kinda like the French!). Won't of course be Utopia - but for some being a member of a country with a common goal is important (and IMO makes good business sense on top of any socialist benefits). Of course they could completely fuck up running a country - but show me a country that hasn't done that at some stage!

The rest is simply detail which can and will be worked out (despite the EOTW scare stories that are peddled), as if certain things do make sense for England and Scotland to do jointly they will do them.

In practice will be a long transition period to unwind the connections between the two countries and even then they will be far closer linked than say England and other countries.

[ronmcd]

The Union can only be dissolved by parliament and they're not going to do that if it means that they have to re-apply to the EU.

No self determination for one part of UK is NOT decided by the whole UK, hence the referendum is for people living in Scotland and not eveyone in UK. It does not matter what Westminister did to try and refuse independence for Scotland if there were a "yes" vote. And international law would agree.

As I've said, the EU could not refuse to allow UK to leave.

And David Cameron is in a no-lose situation. Yes, he could preside over Scotland leaving, but that would make him Prime Minister of the new UK for as long as he likes.

No, when Labour have been in power they have been voted for by ENGLAND. It has only happened rarely that Scottish votes make any difference to a UK election result.

He can't go wrong. The only bad thing would have been for Salmond to manufacture some reason for not holding the vote. That's why he didn't argue much about the terms.
Alex Salmond is now facing a mess if he wins, and a mess if he loses.
No wonder he's put it off to the last minute.

He put it off to ... the time he said he would. The other parties in Scotland refused to let SNP even hold a referendum in the past, and in the 2011 election campaign it was THEM who wanted it put off for as long as possible!