An independent Scotland?

[Clinton Huxley]

Re the above, I think a federal system would be workable. The Federation Of The Isles, to include Eire...

[mistermack]

I don't like this referendum, and Cameron is an idiot, the way he has agreed to it.

Firstly, I just don't like nationalism. It's illogical, causes wars, and is on a par with religion as far as logic goes.

It depends what you mean. Nationalism as in religion or ethnicity, I agree. But that isn't the purpose here, it's simply about political control. Those who accuse the YES campaign of being "nationalists" often assume it's about being Scottish, but it isn't. It's the people who live in Scotland, Scots, English, EU citizens etc, making better (hopefully) decisions about this country than Westminister. Devolution goes so far, a federal system would go further, but only independence would give control over important areas such as taking part in wars or removing nuclear weapons.

Westminister (esp Tory) politicians talk of nationalists in Scotland in disparaging terms, but can't see that they are considerably more nationalistic about the British state and it's place in Europe than those they accuse. Why is British independence ok, but Scottish not?

That's complete bollocks. It's emotional them/us nationalism, nothing more.
Devolution of decision-making isn't more efficient. It just SOUNDS better, when you say it quick.
In real life, it's often a disaster. Big institutions can afford better expertise.

British and Scottish independence don't exist. And never will again.
If the scots vote for separation, they won't be independent. And neither will the UK.

[Clinton Huxley]

Scotland as country would never vote the Cuntservatives in .That surely has to be the biggest point in favour !
Hux ,the oil revenue paid for Thatchers tax cuts ! while she killed every other industry north of Watford and turned Britain into a country totally dependant on the London financial 'industry' .

Indeed they did - and North Sea oil production has received significant subsidies and tax breaks from the UK govt, over time. 3 billion quid this year to develop fields west of Shetland. Mostly "English" money.

[ronmcd]

This whole "governed by London" line is a barely concealed piece of bigotry, too. Governed by over-represented Scotland from London is more accurate.

One can only hope the people of Orkney and the Shetlands follow through on the the inevitable logic of this kind of thinking.

I've searched every page on this thread. I can't seem to find anyone using the phrase "governed by London". Scotland is governed by Holyrood & Westminister, certainly. I'm not sure where the "bigotry" is though.

[Clinton Huxley]

This whole "governed by London" line is a barely concealed piece of bigotry, too. Governed by over-represented Scotland from London is more accurate.

One can only hope the people of Orkney and the Shetlands follow through on the the inevitable logic of this kind of thinking.

I've searched every page on this thread. I can't seem to find anyone using the phrase "governed by London". Scotland is governed by Holyrood & Westminister, certainly. I'm not sure where the "bigotry" is though.

It's the standard line of the the SNP that Scotland's woes are a result of being governed from London. Lets not pretend otherwise. Still, it'll be unicorns and free rainbows on the NHS after so called independence.

[ronmcd]

Scotland as country would never vote the Cuntservatives in .That surely has to be the biggest point in favour !
Hux ,the oil revenue paid for Thatchers tax cuts ! while she killed every other industry north of Watford and turned Britain into a country totally dependant on the London financial 'industry' .

True. The oil money over decades has been spent, wasted you might say. Meanwhile Norway controlled itself and amassed an oil fund, which it is now using to invest in commercial real estate ... in the UK.

[ronmcd]

I don't like this referendum, and Cameron is an idiot, the way he has agreed to it.

Firstly, I just don't like nationalism. It's illogical, causes wars, and is on a par with religion as far as logic goes.

It depends what you mean. Nationalism as in religion or ethnicity, I agree. But that isn't the purpose here, it's simply about political control. Those who accuse the YES campaign of being "nationalists" often assume it's about being Scottish, but it isn't. It's the people who live in Scotland, Scots, English, EU citizens etc, making better (hopefully) decisions about this country than Westminister. Devolution goes so far, a federal system would go further, but only independence would give control over important areas such as taking part in wars or removing nuclear weapons.

Westminister (esp Tory) politicians talk of nationalists in Scotland in disparaging terms, but can't see that they are considerably more nationalistic about the British state and it's place in Europe than those they accuse. Why is British independence ok, but Scottish not?

That's complete bollocks. It's emotional them/us nationalism, nothing more.
Devolution of decision-making isn't more efficient. It just SOUNDS better, when you say it quick.
In real life, it's often a disaster. Big institutions can afford better expertise.

British and Scottish independence don't exist. And never will again.
If the scots vote for separation, they won't be independent. And neither will the UK.

So logically then, we are all just going to merge into larger and larger states, larger institutions will be better, central control will sort everything? NWO!

I didn't say devolution of decision making is more efficient. But it can result in better decision making, for the area being represented. Surely? Otherwise, why is the UK the best level at which to make UK decisions? Why not Europe? Why not globally?

[ronmcd]

Scotland as country would never vote the Cuntservatives in .That surely has to be the biggest point in favour !
Hux ,the oil revenue paid for Thatchers tax cuts ! while she killed every other industry north of Watford and turned Britain into a country totally dependant on the London financial 'industry' .

Indeed they did - and North Sea oil production has received significant subsidies and tax breaks from the UK govt, over time. 3 billion quid this year to develop fields west of Shetland. Mostly "English" money.

When the coalition came to power in 2010, the first thing Osbourne did was hike the taxes out of the blue ....... for oil companies. And so the exploration and investment fell, and is only now starting to recover AFTER Osbourne was forced to reverse his 2010 tax grab. Brilliant.

English money, eh? We non taxpaying wasters in the rest of UK are so grateful.

[ronmcd]

This whole "governed by London" line is a barely concealed piece of bigotry, too. Governed by over-represented Scotland from London is more accurate.

One can only hope the people of Orkney and the Shetlands follow through on the the inevitable logic of this kind of thinking.

I've searched every page on this thread. I can't seem to find anyone using the phrase "governed by London". Scotland is governed by Holyrood & Westminister, certainly. I'm not sure where the "bigotry" is though.

It's the standard line of the the SNP that Scotland's woes are a result of being governed from London. Lets not pretend otherwise. Still, it'll be unicorns and free rainbows on the NHS after so called independence.

Sure, the SNP want independence, and believe that Scotland would be better off if it had control of it's own affairs. I'm not sure why that is "bigotry"? It's a political opinion held by many perfectly reasonable people of all political parties and none. Are there English hating nutcases? Sure. There are racists and murderers and rapists and fascists and assorted bigots too, just like every country. The attempt to paint a legitimate & social democratic political party as such is pretty pathetic though.

On the NHS, it's already independent, and has been different from the rest of UK since it was created. There were no "foundation trusts" policies in the Blair years in Scotland, and hardly any private companies or hospitals, and the coalition health reforms do not apply in Scotland. So the NHS in an independent Scotland would likely be exactly as it is now.

[mistermack]

I didn't say devolution of decision making is more efficient. But it can result in better decision making, for the area being represented. Surely? Otherwise, why is the UK the best level at which to make UK decisions? Why not Europe? Why not globally?

No. Not surely. Not at all.

What's the difference? You make a better decision, that's more efficient.
You make a mistake, that's inefficient. Decisions are more efficient, if you have the expertise available to make the best one.
There is NO evidence that decisions made locally are better. You just get people USING the decisions they make, to try to get re-elected. Instead of trying to make the best decision, they try to make the vote-winning decision. There's a big difference.

People make this claim about devolution. It's bollocks.
If there is a problem, with remoteness of central government, then they should sort it by making sure they are not remote.
But not by promoting local big-mouths who don't know what they're doing.

[Feck]

Are you complaining that Investment in The west of Shetland field has tax breaks ? with the situation in the middle east and the price of oil do you not think that providing tax breaks (that come from the whole country BTW OBVIOUSLY !!!) is a prudent idea ?
I guess The money would be better spent on a new airport for London or another extension to the Tube network ?

[Audley Strange]

I find it interesting how vehement foreigners get about our nation's wish to govern itself.

[mistermack]

I find it interesting how vehement foreigners get about our nation's wish to govern itself.

Apparently not though. Current opinion polls show that scots don't want to split.
I think it shows a lot of common sense in Scotland. Which is what I would have expected.

[Feck]

I find it interesting how vehement foreigners get about our nation's wish to govern itself.

If Scotland becomes independent and I get a Scottish passport will I not have to put up with the racism ?will people stop assuming I'm a 'Hun' ?

[ronmcd]

I didn't say devolution of decision making is more efficient. But it can result in better decision making, for the area being represented. Surely? Otherwise, why is the UK the best level at which to make UK decisions? Why not Europe? Why not globally?

No. Not surely. Not at all.

What's the difference? You make a better decision, that's more efficient.
You make a mistake, that's inefficient. Decisions are more efficient, if you have the expertise available to make the best one.
There is NO evidence that decisions made locally are better. You just get people USING the decisions they make, to try to get re-elected. Instead of trying to make the best decision, they try to make the vote-winning decision. There's a big difference.

People make this claim about devolution. It's bollocks.
If there is a problem, with remoteness of central government, then they should sort it by making sure they are not remote.
But not by promoting local big-mouths who don't know what they're doing.

It seems bizarre and illogical to think that there should be a particular level of government that is correct, and cannot be improved upon. In this case, you seem to be suggesting Westminister is the only correct level, but devolution - anything which represents devolution - is bad.

Why dont you close Westminister and move all powers to Brussels? Surely (dont call be shirley!) it's because the decisions they will make might not be best for the distant and disparate countries and communities they would serve.

So why is devolution within UK not the same?

Some suggest, as you appear to, that the quality of politician at the local level will be poor. Thats actually not a bad argument. "local big-mouths" indeed. But in the Scottish Parliament the 'big-hitters' from the SNP are there, not Westminister, as there are only a handful of MP's. One of the reasons the SNP have been seen as competent in government I think, compared to past Lib/lab coalitions where the bigger names saw Westminister as the ultimate career progression. If not the Lords!

Well, frankly, thats their problem. There are actually very good politicians in Holyrood, some on the Labour benches I have a lot of respect for, and a number in SNP, Greens. And it's self-fulfilling ... give the devolved parliament more powers, as is happening, and the power will mean those with quality will want to be there.