An independent Scotland?

[Clinton Huxley]

Stay with the Union or be ruled from Berlin. That's the choice, Scotland.

With 8% of the UKs populatio , I guess they get about half an Astute class sub.

It can be sold for scrap, then. Buy a couple of defibrillators.

Except it won't be. If you are expecting some kind of peace dividend from leaving the Union, I think you will be disappointed.

[Rum]

In a lot of ways, a lot of the people north of the border feel pretty different from our friends in the south. For one thing, though there is the full spectrum of opinion, the vote in general elections in Scotland tends to be more to the left, and yet an awful lot of the time we're governed by right-wing Westminster governments, because the English vote tends to be further to the right. Being ruled by those we vote for will likely mean having a government that's more to the left, and it seems that will suit more Scots than having governments led by Tories - or, for that matter, pseudo-Tories like Blair.

The other thing is that independence would hopefully reduce the number of layers of government. At present in Scotland, we're all governed by four layers of government, and I'm totally at a loss to explain why we need so many. So, here in Highland, I'm governed by Highland Council in Inverness, by the Scottish Government in Edinburgh, by the Westminster government in London, and - now we're all in the developing United States of Europe - by Brussels. It's completely fucking mad. Because democracy's a good thing, we're just getting ridiculous amounts of it. Just think how many more hospitals we could have if we didn't have even one of those layers. So, dump Westminster.

Unless things change greatly in the next two years, or my inchoate dementia gallops on apace, I'll be voting "yes" in the referendum. Yes to looking after ourselves the way lots of countries do that are the same size and smaller; yes to seeing an end forever to privileged Old Etonians ruling people here of whose lives they've no understanding; yes to making better use of finite resources, with less money going on politicians, on their advisers, their under-secretaries, their spin-doctors, and their clerical support; and yes to having a legislature whose members are more in tune with the political predisposition of the electorate here.

Do you mind if England joins you?

If only. For years, in the Foot and Kinnock times, I argued that independence wasn't the way: that the Labour Party just needed to move a bit to the right, get elected, and then implement the sort of policies we were hoping for. They did indeed move to the right, and we got Oor Tony. No, I've now come to the view that it has to be separation.

Those who wish to avoid the new, forever-Tory England (as it will be, without the English Labour Party getting supported by the Scottish vote) is welcome to emigrate north.

I do understand the arguments, but joking aside I still think we are stronger together than apart. I for one will feel very sad if Scotland goes its own way and neither country will do well out of it in my view.

[Clinton Huxley]

The SNP are hoping to walk away with all he oil and none of the national debt. It's fairy tale politics. And Salmond is a cunt.

[Rum]

Can we have a referendum on that last point? I for one would vote 'yes'!

[Clinton Huxley]

Can we have a referendum on that last point? I for one would vote 'yes'!

I don't think we need a referendum for that....

[Feck]

What happened to Salmond's rallying cry of Independence in Europe ? OOPS Europe is not going to be showering Scotland with grants and loans at the moment is it ? . An honest settlement including debts would leave Scotland Isolated and broke .I don't dare think of what Salmond and his cronies would make of the fishing policies.
All this because Scots want to be 'A nation again' it's ancient history FREEDUMB

[John_fi_Skye]

[ronmcd]

The SNP are hoping to walk away with all he oil and none of the national debt. It's fairy tale politics. And Salmond is a cunt.

Well, everyone is a cunt, you and me included I'm sure. On the politics, no, the SNP are intending following international law. That means the resources of Scotland become Scotland's after independence, just as Scotland wouldnt be expecting any revenue from English Welsh or NI resources in the future. Approx 80 - 90% of the oil fields are in Scottish waters, but most of the gas is in English waters, and thats how it would be split.

National debt, racked up historically, would be split on a GDP or population basis. Again I think thats internationally accepted, the SNP absolutely accept it.

[Feck]

John, You may have some valid reasons but I don't think many who vote will be as informed. They will vote because.... 'Fuck the English !'

[Audley Strange]

Ah but the same applies to those who'll vote against it because... "Fuck the Pope!"

[John_fi_Skye]

John, You may have some valid reasons but I don't think many who vote will be as informed. They will vote because.... 'Fuck the English !'

There'll be some who think that way, but I actually think the ordinary Scottish voter tends to be characterised, on average, by an inclination to vote a bit to the left. The SNP took a number of previously-Labour seats at the last Scottish election, and I think that shows that they're now managing to look as if they're a bit to the left, and the Scottish Labour Party's suffering electorally because people here see the British Labour Party, post-Blair, as just another Tory party.

A wee while ago, as I recall, Pappa made a wise observation to the effect that it's hard to find a politician who isn't a cunt. I always liked Nelson Mandela, and Vaclav Havel, but beyond that I'm struggling. But the fact is that the present world seems to have an inescapable fondness for what it refers to as Democracy. In voting SNP, I'm making the best of it, as I see it, and I'm certainly not arguing that anybody isn't a cunt.

[FBM]

What happened to Salmond's rallying cry of Independence in Europe ? OOPS Europe is not going to be showering Scotland with grants and loans at the moment is it ? . An honest settlement including debts would leave Scotland Isolated and broke .I don't dare think of what Salmond and his cronies would make of the fishing policies.
All this because Scots want to be 'A nation again' it's ancient history FREEDUMB

As long as you make the best scotch, you'll always have both friends and money.

[ronmcd]

What happened to Salmond's rallying cry of Independence in Europe ? OOPS Europe is not going to be showering Scotland with grants and loans at the moment is it ? . An honest settlement including debts would leave Scotland Isolated and broke .I don't dare think of what Salmond and his cronies would make of the fishing policies.

Why would Scotland be isolated and broke? Scotland is pretty much a microcosm of the UK economy, similar GDP, similar economy, just on a smaller scale. Why would Scotland, uniquely, be unable to be a successful independent nation?

I remember Stephanie Flanders, BBC economics editor, giving a talk to bbc journalists about the independence issue (its on youtube). She made the point that yes, Scotland would likely run a deficit at the moment if independent. Aha! So Scotland is subsidised? No, she said, the UK runs a larger deficit relatively. And Scotland is attracting huge amounts of investment these days, more than almost anywhere in UK.

But it's largely irrelevant - peaks and troughs over time, the point is Scotlands economy would be just fine, we might do a wee bit better, a wee bit worse. But Scotland wouldnt be pooling our revenue down to Westminister for them to spend on nuclear weapons, London Olympics, illegal wars, subsidising nuclear power companies to the detriment of renewables, CHARGING power companies to connect to the grid in the North where the resources are while PAYING companies to join the grid in the South, and generally making political and spending decisions that are designed for London and not for the rest of UK.

All this because Scots want to be 'A nation again' it's ancient history FREEDUMB

Nope. It's about making decisions here. People in Scotland tend to vote differently, and the areas in which the Scottish government have complete control - NHS, education, law, justice - we see policies diverging from Westminister. It's not a shortbread-tin braveheart nationalism about ethnicity or being Scottish ... it's political control. Thats all.

[Feck]

Does religion enter into this argument ? I've not heard mention of it by anyone I know opposing Independence . I have heard almost constant dumb ass claims of 'We got the oil, fuck England !' etc .
I would like to see actual real calculated figures of how the division of money will work out , I'd love to see Scotland rise and be productive and profitable BUT I do not trust the SNP .Still After independence they would be no SNP surely

[John_fi_Skye]

What happened to Salmond's rallying cry of Independence in Europe ? OOPS Europe is not going to be showering Scotland with grants and loans at the moment is it ? . An honest settlement including debts would leave Scotland Isolated and broke .I don't dare think of what Salmond and his cronies would make of the fishing policies.

Why would Scotland be isolated and broke? Scotland is pretty much a microcosm of the UK economy, similar GDP, similar economy, just on a smaller scale. Why would Scotland, uniquely, be unable to be a successful independent nation?

I remember Stephanie Flanders, BBC economics editor, giving a talk to bbc journalists about the independence issue (its on youtube). She made the point that yes, Scotland would likely run a deficit at the moment if independent. Aha! So Scotland is subsidised? No, she said, the UK runs a larger deficit relatively. And Scotland is attracting huge amounts of investment these days, more than almost anywhere in UK.

But it's largely irrelevant - peaks and troughs over time, the point is Scotlands economy would be just fine, we might do a wee bit better, a wee bit worse. But Scotland wouldnt be pooling our revenue down to Westminister for them to spend on nuclear weapons, London Olympics, illegal wars, subsidising nuclear power companies to the detriment of renewables, CHARGING power companies to connect to the grid in the North where the resources are while PAYING companies to join the grid in the South, and generally making political and spending decisions that are designed for London and not for the rest of UK.

All this because Scots want to be 'A nation again' it's ancient history FREEDUMB

Nope. It's about making decisions here. People in Scotland tend to vote differently, and the areas in which the Scottish government have complete control - NHS, education, law, justice - we see policies diverging from Westminister. It's not a shortbread-tin braveheart nationalism about ethnicity or being Scottish ... it's political control. Thats all.

Great post, Ron!