Guns used for lawful self defense

[Blind groper]

Seth

You cherry pick data to make guns look good. Try teenage suicides instead of unintentional gun deaths.

http://kidshealth.org/parent/emotions/b ... icide.html

I quote :


"Suicide is the third-leading cause of death for 15- to 24-year-olds, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), after accidents and homicide. It's also thought that at least 25 attempts are made for every completed teen suicide.

The risk of suicide increases dramatically when kids and teens have access to firearms at home, and nearly 60% of all suicides in the United States are committed with a gun. "

[Seth]

Seth

You cherry pick data to make guns look good. Try teenage suicides instead of unintentional gun deaths.

The post I was responding to was about an unintentional gun death of a toddler. I'm comparing apples to apples.

http://kidshealth.org/parent/emotions/b ... icide.html

I quote :


"Suicide is the third-leading cause of death for 15- to 24-year-olds, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), after accidents and homicide. It's also thought that at least 25 attempts are made for every completed teen suicide.

The risk of suicide increases dramatically when kids and teens have access to firearms at home, and nearly 60% of all suicides in the United States are committed with a gun. "

In 2010 there were only 749 deaths by firearms suicide among all children 1 to 19. That's 0.00000249666667 (2.5 millionths of one percent) percent of the population. Source:

And talk about cherry-picking, since when are 19 to 24 year old's "kids?"

I wouldn't exactly call that an epidemic of gun suicides by children.

[mistermack]

Linkin Leatham, 'Miracle' Baby, Dies After Accidentally Shooting Himself With Father's Gun

A toddler who overcame serious health problems at birth died after accidentally shooting himself with his father's gun in their Utah home.

Linkin Leatham's parents described their two-year-old as a "miracle" baby who defied doctors' expectations by fully recovering from "multiple medical complications," according to an obituary in the Provo Daily Herald.

Melinda and Owen Leatham were in their Springville home last Tuesday when their son picked up a handgun left at his eye level and inadvertently fired it, according to KSL. But they didn't see him do it.

Linkin "tragically died in his parents' arms," the obituary said.
The first two months of Linkin's life were spent inside a children's hospital where he bounced back from the unspecified congenital ailments. As his parents said in the obit, he was "a fighter from the beginning."

The family held a funeral Saturday and the parents said that his heart and corneas were donated to help another child.

The Utah County district attorney's office is investigating his death and are waiting for autopsy results for answers to how the child pulled the trigger, the Salt Lake Tribune reports.

Owen Leatham is a police officer, but the weapon that killed Linkin wasn't his service gun, reports said.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/1 ... 93741.html

And the father was a trained professional, no less.

If only there had been more guns in the house, someone might have been able to shoot the boy...to prevent him from shooting himself. The solution, of course, is always more guns.

What's tragic is that you can bet that the father would have spouted exactly the same moronic shit that Seth comes out with, the day before.
I'll bet he wouldn't today.

Some people haven't got the brains to work it out BEFORE it happens to them.

[Blind groper]

Not sure where you get 469 gun suicides from, Seth.
According to your own reference, suicide in late teens and early adulthood amount to over 4600 per year and are the third leading cause of death after accident and homicide. My reference says 60% of all American suicides are with guns, so this is a lot more than 469.

Keeping hand guns unavailable would reduce those figures very substantially.

[Seth]

Not sure where you get 469 gun suicides from, Seth.

From the CDC's National Center for Injury Prevention and control. Go here and construct your own query for "all injuries" under "Categories of Causes" and "1 to 19" in the "Custom Age Range." Submit the request and you will find "Suicide firearm = 749 in the right column at number six.

According to your own reference, suicide in late teens and early adulthood amount to over 4600 per year and are the third leading cause of death after accident and homicide. My reference says 60% of all American suicides are with guns, so this is a lot more than 469.

I'm referring explicitly to gun suicides by "children" and I'm being generous by including persons up to 19 years of age in the group. If we exclude "teenagers," which is to say limiting it to 1 to 12 years old, gun suicides don't even make the top 20 causes, and suicide by suffocation comes in at number 12 with 56 deaths in 2010. And many of these may be intentionally or unintentionally misclassified as "suicide" when they are actually the result of accidental hanging/choking during sexual experimentation called "autoerotic death." It is very, very common for coroners and police to classify children found dead from hanging in the closet as "suicide suffocation" rather than "accidental suffocation due to sexual misadventure" to spare the families the stigma and shame of having their child's death listed as a scandalous but increasingly common "sexual perversion."

If we skew the age range to 13 to 18, suicides jump a lot, with "suffocation" (meaning "Intentional self harm (suicide) by hanging, strangulation, and suffocation") being the number one cause at 47.9 % with 664 deaths, with firearms coming in second at 39.1% and 542 deaths in 2010. And it's even more likely that many of these suffocation deaths are misclassified for the reasons mentioned above, so the total number of actual intentional suicides is very probably much smaller than the total number of deaths of 1386 in the 13 to 18 age range. That's 0.00000462 percent of the population.

Still not an "epidemic" of teen suicide I'm afraid, just a relatively small number of tragic deaths that cannot be effectively addressed by banning the possession of firearms society-wide. If they can't use a gun, they'll just hang themselves. In fact, it's MORE LIKELY that they will hang themselves, which if done correctly lets them go out on an orgasm, than shoot themselves.

Keeping hand guns unavailable would reduce those figures very substantially.

Hardly. People who want to commit suicide will find a way to do so if they are intent on doing so as the teen statistics show. And since it's their human right to determine the time, place and manner of their death if they wish, I would not remove from them one of the quickest and most effective method of suicide only to substitute some other more complex and difficult method merely because people like you don't like guns.

If people want to die, let them. In fact facilitate them. Provide suicide centers where (a la "Logan's Run) anyone who wants to die can be humanely euthanized on demand in a peaceful, pleasant manner and environment.

[Seth]

Linkin Leatham, 'Miracle' Baby, Dies After Accidentally Shooting Himself With Father's Gun

A toddler who overcame serious health problems at birth died after accidentally shooting himself with his father's gun in their Utah home.

Linkin Leatham's parents described their two-year-old as a "miracle" baby who defied doctors' expectations by fully recovering from "multiple medical complications," according to an obituary in the Provo Daily Herald.

Melinda and Owen Leatham were in their Springville home last Tuesday when their son picked up a handgun left at his eye level and inadvertently fired it, according to KSL. But they didn't see him do it.

Linkin "tragically died in his parents' arms," the obituary said.
The first two months of Linkin's life were spent inside a children's hospital where he bounced back from the unspecified congenital ailments. As his parents said in the obit, he was "a fighter from the beginning."

The family held a funeral Saturday and the parents said that his heart and corneas were donated to help another child.

The Utah County district attorney's office is investigating his death and are waiting for autopsy results for answers to how the child pulled the trigger, the Salt Lake Tribune reports.

Owen Leatham is a police officer, but the weapon that killed Linkin wasn't his service gun, reports said.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/1 ... 93741.html

And the father was a trained professional, no less.

If only there had been more guns in the house, someone might have been able to shoot the boy...to prevent him from shooting himself. The solution, of course, is always more guns.

What's tragic is that you can bet that the father would have spouted exactly the same moronic shit that Seth comes out with, the day before.
I'll bet he wouldn't today.

Some people haven't got the brains to work it out BEFORE it happens to them.

Stupidity is its own reward. Carelessness with one's children is quite dangerous, and more kids die in bathtubs, swimming pools an five-gallon buckets than with firearms.

Of the unintentional causes of death in 1 to 5 year olds, number 1 is unintentional drowning, at 473 for 2010.

Firearms come in at number 10, with 29 deaths, and more kids are unintentionally poisoned (39) than die by guns.

So, let's here you rant and rave about banning bathtubs, swimming pools, five gallon buckets and household chemicals before you go off on firearms.

[Blind groper]

Hardly. People who want to commit suicide will find a way to do so if they are intent on doing so as the teen statistics show.

That, I am sorry to tell you, is a popular fallacy.

There has been a lot of research into suicide, and here are some of the findings.

1. The impulse to suicide involves a critical time period, which I could name a 'critical hour', though it varies from perhaps 5 minutes to several hours. If the would-be suicide finds a means within that period, then they will attempt suicide. If nothing is found, then the impulse passes, and no attempt is made.

2. The vast majority of suicide attempts are not repeated. If the would-be suicide survives the attempt, they will probably go on to live a long life.

3. The vast majority of suicide attempts are unsuccessful, because the methods used are ineffective. An overdose of sleeping pills, for example, has a 'success' rate of just 2%. Females attempt suicide more often than males, but their 'success' rate is substantially lower, since they tend to use less effective means.

4. There are just two methods that have a very high 'success' rate - over 90%. Those are suicide by firearm, especially hand gun, and suicide by jumping off a high place. The latter is less common due to the fact that the critical hour is likely to pass before the would-be suicide finds a suitable high place, and they change their mind.

5. 60% of all successful suicides in the USA are by firearm. Mainly hand gun. About 12,000 per year.

6. As a result of the above, persons in a household have about a 400% increased risk of death by suicide if hand guns are kept in that household. Parents who love their children and who are silly enough to keep a hand gun at home need to keep it securely locked up and make sure their kids cannot gain access.

[Tyrannical]

Print a working gun with a 3D printer

Not quite ready for prime time, but free open source instructions will be coming soon allowing anyone owning the sure to be common in the future 3D printer to fabricate their own firearm in the privacy of their own home.

http://news.yahoo.com/you-don-t-bring-a ... --yet.html

[FBM]

Korea has one of the highest suicide rates in the world. No guns. But lots of tall buildings.

Edit: Checked Wiki. The highest suicide rate...

[MrJonno]

Person most likely to kill a fellow member of your family is them (ie suicide) , followed by you (person most likely to kill your wife is you). A random stranger doing it is up there with winning the lottery

[Blind groper]

Person most likely to kill a fellow member of your family is them (ie suicide) , followed by you (person most likely to kill your wife is you). A random stranger doing it is up there with winning the lottery

Which points out the idiocy of keeping a hand gun at home for 'protection.'

The end result of that policy is a major increase in the likelihood of one spouse killing the other, or a family member killing themselves. Keeping a hand gun at home makes your family far less safe, not more.

[Seth]

Hardly. People who want to commit suicide will find a way to do so if they are intent on doing so as the teen statistics show.

That, I am sorry to tell you, is a popular fallacy.

There has been a lot of research into suicide, and here are some of the findings.

1. The impulse to suicide involves a critical time period, which I could name a 'critical hour', though it varies from perhaps 5 minutes to several hours. If the would-be suicide finds a means within that period, then they will attempt suicide. If nothing is found, then the impulse passes, and no attempt is made.

Best not to be impulsive then. Still not a reason to take anybody's guns away.

2. The vast majority of suicide attempts are not repeated. If the would-be suicide survives the attempt, they will probably go on to live a long life.

And pass their suicidal tendency genes on to future generations. Better they die young, before they procreate.

3. The vast majority of suicide attempts are unsuccessful, because the methods used are ineffective. An overdose of sleeping pills, for example, has a 'success' rate of just 2%. Females attempt suicide more often than males, but their 'success' rate is substantially lower, since they tend to use less effective means.

I think all suicide methods should be 100 percent effective.

4. There are just two methods that have a very high 'success' rate - over 90%. Those are suicide by firearm, especially hand gun, and suicide by jumping off a high place. The latter is less common due to the fact that the critical hour is likely to pass before the would-be suicide finds a suitable high place, and they change their mind.

How about kiosks on the sidewalk made out of armor plate steel with a built-in rifle sticking up from in front of the chair? You go in, sit in the chair, put your chin on a rest and push a button and the rifle blows your brains out, literally. Rifles are the very best firearms for suicide because the large amounts of high velocity gasses ensure that the brain is completely destroyed instantly.

5. 60% of all successful suicides in the USA are by firearm. Mainly hand gun. About 12,000 per year.

Told you we were the best at everything.

6. As a result of the above, persons in a household have about a 400% increased risk of death by suicide if hand guns are kept in that household. Parents who love their children and who are silly enough to keep a hand gun at home need to keep it securely locked up and make sure their kids cannot gain access.

If your kids are suicidal, you probably shouldn't keep a gun at home. Or rope. Or pills. Or electrical devices and water. Or second stories. Or motor vehicles. But that's an individual choice, not one the government gets to make for anyone.

[Seth]

Person most likely to kill a fellow member of your family is them (ie suicide) , followed by you (person most likely to kill your wife is you). A random stranger doing it is up there with winning the lottery

So what? Just because you're homicidally insane, or your wife is (and who could blame her?) still doesn't mean the government has any authority to interfere with our right to keep and bear arms.

[Seth]

Person most likely to kill a fellow member of your family is them (ie suicide) , followed by you (person most likely to kill your wife is you). A random stranger doing it is up there with winning the lottery

Which points out the idiocy of keeping a hand gun at home for 'protection.'

The end result of that policy is a major increase in the likelihood of one spouse killing the other, or a family member killing themselves. Keeping a hand gun at home makes your family far less safe, not more.

Nah. That's just Handgun Control propaganda long ago debunked as "junk science."

[Warren Dew]

Linkin Leatham, 'Miracle' Baby, Dies After Accidentally Shooting Himself With Father's Gun

A toddler who overcame serious health problems at birth died after accidentally shooting himself with his father's gun in their Utah home.

Linkin Leatham's parents described their two-year-old as a "miracle" baby who defied doctors' expectations by fully recovering from "multiple medical complications," according to an obituary in the Provo Daily Herald.

Melinda and Owen Leatham were in their Springville home last Tuesday when their son picked up a handgun left at his eye level and inadvertently fired it, according to KSL. But they didn't see him do it.

Linkin "tragically died in his parents' arms," the obituary said.
The first two months of Linkin's life were spent inside a children's hospital where he bounced back from the unspecified congenital ailments. As his parents said in the obit, he was "a fighter from the beginning."

The family held a funeral Saturday and the parents said that his heart and corneas were donated to help another child.

The Utah County district attorney's office is investigating his death and are waiting for autopsy results for answers to how the child pulled the trigger, the Salt Lake Tribune reports.

Owen Leatham is a police officer, but the weapon that killed Linkin wasn't his service gun, reports said.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/1 ... 93741.html

And the father was a trained professional, no less.

If only there had been more guns in the house, someone might have been able to shoot the boy...to prevent him from shooting himself. The solution, of course, is always more guns.

What's tragic is that you can bet that the father would have spouted exactly the same moronic shit that Seth comes out with, the day before.
I'll bet he wouldn't today.

Indeed. He might be smart enough to keep guns out of the reach of his preschoolers today.