Would you support physical castration for sex offenders?

[mistermack]

I hope we're not going to include as sex offenders those women who seduce willing teenage boys...

If teachers, they should certainly be sacked, but that should be the extent of it...

Should women who seduce willing teenage boys be treated differently from men who seduce willing teenage girls?

Like it or not, there is a difference.

We say words like willing, as if they only mean one thing. Unfortunately, it covers a broad spectrum of willingness.
It's shades of grey, not just willing or unwilling.

And the difference between adult men seducing under-age girls, and adult women seducing under-age boys, is the dominance factor. Where does "willing" stop, and "scared to say no" start? Underage kids are completely confused about sex when they start experiencing sexual feelings. What's "willing" in that context?

But boys are far less likely to give way to a dominant older woman, than girls are to a dominant older man. That's just a fact.

[Blind groper]

It is also a fact that the consequences are different. For example, an older woman seducing a willing underage guy is seriously unlikely to make him pregnant!

[orpheus]

I hope we're not going to include as sex offenders those women who seduce willing teenage boys...

If teachers, they should certainly be sacked, but that should be the extent of it...

Should women who seduce willing teenage boys be treated differently from men who seduce willing teenage girls?

Like it or not, there is a difference.

We say words like willing, as if they only mean one thing. Unfortunately, it covers a broad spectrum of willingness.
It's shades of grey, not just willing or unwilling.

And the difference between adult men seducing under-age girls, and adult women seducing under-age boys, is the dominance factor. Where does "willing" stop, and "scared to say no" start? Underage kids are completely confused about sex when they start experiencing sexual feelings. What's "willing" in that context?

But boys are far less likely to give way to a dominant older woman, than girls are to a dominant older man. That's just a fact.

Sorry, but...evidence?

[mistermack]

Sorry, but...evidence?

Well, the evidence that works for me is the experience of my lifetime. And what I read in the papers.
If you want the statistics from studies, you'll have to look for yourself.

I had a girlfriend who had been abused by her father. She didn't want it, used to dread it, but still gave way. Because she was young and he was dominant in the relationship. It happens all the time.
Fathers abuse their daughters. You don't get much the other way around do you? Mothers abusing their sons?
I've never met a man who said he had sex with his mother, even though he didn't want it.

If your experience is the opposite, then let's hear it. It's certainly been kept quiet in the press.

[orpheus]

Sorry, but...evidence?

Well, the evidence that works for me is the experience of my lifetime. And what I read in the papers.
If you want the statistics from studies, you'll have to look for yourself.

I had a girlfriend who had been abused by her father. She didn't want it, used to dread it, but still gave way. Because she was young and he was dominant in the relationship. It happens all the time.
Fathers abuse their daughters. You don't get much the other way around do you? Mothers abusing their sons?
I've never met a man who said he had sex with his mother, even though he didn't want it.

If your experience is the opposite, then let's hear it. It's certainly been kept quiet in the press.

It's reported far less, because there's a huge stigma associated with it. So it's hard to know real statistics. I don't think from that we can conclude that it happens less often than the other way around.

And yeah, I've known a few this has happened to. Not only do they have to contend with the same kind of lifetime psychological fallout as abused girls do, they've also said it's unbelievably difficult to admit to anyone what had happened to them. The shame is doubly hard to overcome; they think they're totally alone ecause nobody thinks this happens much to boys. So the lack of reporting reinforces a lack of reporting.

Edited to add: In any case, this is sort of a tangent. I don't think you or anyone else denies that at least some women abuse boys - at least some of the time. It's not totally unheard of. So the issue at hand is: do we treat these women any differently from sexually abusive men? I don't think it's legal to do so. And I certainly don't think it's right. So this proposal of physical castration poses a huge legal problem of fairness.

[JimC]

I hope we're not going to include as sex offenders those women who seduce willing teenage boys...

If teachers, they should certainly be sacked, but that should be the extent of it...

Should women who seduce willing teenage boys be treated differently from men who seduce willing teenage girls?

Like it or not, there is a difference.

We say words like willing, as if they only mean one thing. Unfortunately, it covers a broad spectrum of willingness.
It's shades of grey, not just willing or unwilling.

And the difference between adult men seducing under-age girls, and adult women seducing under-age boys, is the dominance factor. Where does "willing" stop, and "scared to say no" start? Underage kids are completely confused about sex when they start experiencing sexual feelings. What's "willing" in that context?

But boys are far less likely to give way to a dominant older woman, than girls are to a dominant older man. That's just a fact.

Without being too certain or dogmatic, I think that is likely. It is probably highly politically incorrect to want to treat them differently, but I think they have quite different consequences.

However, a female teacher in a position of authority should certainly face the sack - it is an abuse of position, if perhaps not truly criminal...

[FBM]

A little google can go a long way:

Mother-Son Incest: Hidden in Shame and Rising

The molestation began as gentle fondling when Gregg Milligan was 4 years old, but it soon escalated to aggressive touching and eventually beatings that would render him unconscious.

For seven years, until Michigan child welfare workers intervened when he was 11, Milligan was too ashamed to reveal that his tormentor was his own mother.

"She was very brutal," said Milligan. "Through her difficulty reaching climax, she would become frustrated and violent, hitting and punching and slapping not only my genitals, but my face and body."

"It was terribly confusing, and it wasn't just the violation," said Milligan, now 46, and director of infrastructure for a major health care provider in Michigan.

As bad as the incest was, things got worse. Milligan's father had left when he was 2, but by the time he was 8, his mother, an alcoholic and a prostitute, invited strange men home who would sexually abuse him.

"Back then I would never tell anyone, not even a sibling," said Milligan, the most "compliant and sensitive" of three children living at home. "I was just too afraid. It was so horrendous for me to believe she actually would do this to me."

One of the unspeakable secrets in the world of child sexual abuse is that mothers can be molesters. Often, they prey on daughters, but more frequently their sons -- who report increased feelings of isolation and sexual confusion along with thoughts of suicide.
...

Previous studies of day care workers published in 2000 in the Journal of Sex Research, found that women -- without male accomplices -- accounted for only about 6 percent of the abuse of females and 14 percent of males.

But more recent national surveys indicate about 12 percent of all child abuse cases are committed by women -- "a 100 percent increase compared with previous data," according to Chris Newlin, NCAC's executive director.
...

Survivors like Milligan say that these crimes often go unnoticed, not just because society can't imagine women as aggressors, but because boys feel riddled with shame.

...

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/mother-son ... 454&page=2

[mistermack]

I still think women should be treated differently to men, because of the dominance issue.

I'm not saying that it doesn't happen, just that the nature of consent is diifferent. A girl can be fucked while she's making her mind up, or even if she's struggling to get away. It's just different the other way around. A woman needs a certain amount of genuine consent to have sex with a boy. Also, sexually mature boys are often stronger than their teachers. They have that in the back of their minds, that they can physically call a halt any time, if they want.

A small girl being abused by a big man isn't in the same situation at all. Her "consent" might be influenced by an element of fear, so she might take the easy way out, and give in.

[Blind groper]

I agree with mistermack on this, though more for the reason of consequences. An older man seducing a willing underage gal can leave her pregnant, or with an STD, or (when he dumps her) with serious heartbreak.

An older woman seducing a willing underage guy simply cannot make him pregnant; the odds of passing on an STD are less; and young teenage males are less prone to serious heartbreak than young teenage females.

The former case is a crime. The latter mostly an offense against good taste.

[FBM]

While I was googling that topic, I ran across long lists of psychological disorders suffered by male victims of childhood sexual abuse by their mothers. I could post a few lists, if you like. I just googled "mother-son sex abuse" and a butt-load was available at a click.

I may be wrong, but I think a lot of female victims think that the lasting psychological damage is often worse than the physical damage, which usually heals much sooner.

[mistermack]

While I was googling that topic, I ran across long lists of psychological disorders suffered by male victims of childhood sexual abuse by their mothers. I could post a few lists, if you like. I just googled "mother-son sex abuse" and a butt-load was available at a click.

I may be wrong, but I think a lot of female victims think that the lasting psychological damage is often worse than the physical damage, which usually heals much sooner.

Nobody would dispute that some mothers can and do abuse their sons, I was just making the point that it's much rarer.
Even the study that you quoted only claims that 12 percent of abuse is by women. And that is double what earlier studies found. This bears out my point that dominance is a factor. Between nine and eighteen men abuse, for every one woman.

And the example that you posted, of a young boy being abused from the age of 4 to 11 isn't really relevant to the consent question. Nobody could claim that a four or eleven year old was willingly consenting to sex. It would be serious abuse, whatever the sexes involved.

[FBM]

...

I may be wrong, but I think a lot of female victims think that the lasting psychological damage is often worse than the physical damage, which usually heals much sooner.

You're conveniently skipping over the relevant part by means of a red herring.

[Beatsong]

@ Mistermack and Blind Groper

I agree about prevalence: it seems pretty obvious not just from press reports but from criminal statistics that there are far more male child abusers than female, and I doubt the difference is purely due to the latter being "hushed up".

However on the issue of culpability, I think you've got things a bit wrong. We could argue about the issues of potential harm and "dominance factor" that you raise, but the problem is that those are not the reason why sex with minors is illegal. After all an unequal power relationship often exists between a man and an adult woman too, but it's not illegal for him to have sex with her when she's influenced by that relationship - as long as she consents. And more importantly, sex with minors is illegal regardless of the degree of consent. Hell an underage girl can come and BEG you for sex, and you can turn her away, and she can come back and beg again, and again and again until you agree - and you'll still have broken the law when you do it.

Sex with minors is illegal for one simple reason: because the law doesn't recognise minors as being able to "consent" in a legal sense. It's the same reason they can't have credit cards, or generally enter into contracts that involve them making important decisions with consequences. Because sex with a minor lacks genuine legal consent (even if the minor SAYS "yes"), it's illegal like rape is.

As for how harshly we judge people for it in a moral rather than legal sense, that surely depends on the individual case. There are certainly cases of underage girls being completely willing and even initiating sex with older men, with the "dominance" issue not coming into it; and there certainly can be a relationship of dominance between a woman and a boy. I don't see how you can generalise that one is worse than the other.

[FBM]

Just something to ponder: The legal age of consent in Korea is 13. Just after puberty. Not saying this is right or wrong, just saying that the prevailing Western convention is not universal and a multi-cultural perspective may help eliminate bias on this. I'm not scoping out 13-y.o. girls, but apparenty it wouldn't be either illegal or immoral if I did so in Korea. How do we set absolute standards? Based on what? I would think that a 50-y.o. fuck like me would be sick to go around scoping out 13-y.o. girls, but it seems that this is not a universal sentiment. How do we say, in absolute terms, who is right and who is wrong? Or am I just a victim of Philosophy education?

[Beatsong]

It's 13 in Spain too, and 14 in a couple of other European countries.