French magazine publishes Muhammed lulz.

[Animavore]

And this tactic ends up with another 30 pr 40 people being killed. You willing to be one of them? All I would offer is that there are more intelligent and long term strategies for dealing with this issue.

The Muslim fundamentalists will not win in the end and it is the end that matters.

You're trying to shift blame of the killing on people doing the cartoons. Only the people doing the killing are to blame for their own actions.

Jim is correct. However you guys who are so fucking hung ho should stop and think a little less stridently when lives are at stake. Especially when there are other ways to skin this particular cat.

No there aren't. You don't give in to terrorism. If you do they've won.

[Animavore]

Charlie Hebdo was firebombed last year* for publishing a picture of Mohammed.

In my view, if we in the West back down, or even entertain these demands, we will have compromised our fundamental priniciples a step too far.

Charlie Hebdo is right.

Good to see they've no problem putting themselves in the firing line for free speech

[Gerald McGrew]

Your analogy is wrong here.

My granny doesn't like swearing either but if I did curse as I generally do all I'd get is the wag of a finger.

Now if my granny leapt up and started laying into me violently demanding that I never use that type of language ever or expect more consequences then fucking right I will. I'm hardly going to curl up in a cowardly ball and give into her hysterical demands. I'll make it my business to swear so everyone can see what an irrational nut-job she is when she runs riot over a stupid word.

Whether your initial action is childish is not dependent on her reaction to it.

Granny: "I don't like swearing. It offends me."

FUCK OFF YOU WORTHLESS PIECE OF SHIT!! I'LL FUCKING RIP YOUR GODDAMN NECK OFF AND SHIT DOWN YOUR FUCKING NECK!!!

Scenario 1: Granny wags her finger at me.

Scenario 2: Granny smacks me upside the head with a bat.

Scenario 3: Granny pulls out a gun and shoots me.


Whichever of the three scenarios ensue, it doesn't change the fact that my initial action was very childish and stupid. Doesn't mean I didn't have the right to do it, or does it give Granny the right to do #2 or 3, either.

[Animavore]

Your analogy is wrong here.

My granny doesn't like swearing either but if I did curse as I generally do all I'd get is the wag of a finger.

Now if my granny leapt up and started laying into me violently demanding that I never use that type of language ever or expect more consequences then fucking right I will. I'm hardly going to curl up in a cowardly ball and give into her hysterical demands. I'll make it my business to swear so everyone can see what an irrational nut-job she is when she runs riot over a stupid word.

Whether your initial action is childish is not dependent on her reaction to it.

Granny: "I don't like swearing. It offends me."

FUCK OFF YOU WORTHLESS PIECE OF SHIT!! I'LL FUCKING RIP YOUR GODDAMN NECK OFF AND SHIT DOWN YOUR FUCKING NECK!!!

Scenario 1: Granny wags her finger at me.

Scenario 2: Granny smacks me upside the head with a bat.

Scenario 3: Granny pulls out a gun and shoots me.


Whichever of the three scenarios ensue, it doesn't change the fact that my initial action was very childish and stupid. Doesn't mean I didn't have the right to do it, or does it give Granny the right to do #2 or 3, either.

What? The initial action was not granny saying she doesn't like swearing. It was granny going mental at you swearing in the first place.

[Gerald McGrew]

There are no parallels with interpersonal interactions.

I don't see how that changes anything in a really meaningful way.

Islam is a very controlling religion.

Demonstrating it doesn't have control over us is very important.

Agreed, but there are tactful, strategic ways of doing so and there are childish, hateful ways of doing so.

Demonstrating to people who live under the thumb of Islam benefit from seeing it mocked, vilified, hated. It is shown to be powerless.

Don't assume that everyone who "lives under Islam" does so unwillingly.

[Gerald McGrew]

Animavore,

Read my post again. I said "my initial action" (which was screaming obscenities at Granny).

[HomerJay]

Salman Rushdie on the crisis:

SALMAN RUSHDIE: Yeah. Well, what I would say, in a general sense, is that I feel that something has gone wrong inside the Muslim world, because I can remember - within my living memory - when some of these now-beleaguered, embattled cities like Beirut, Tehran, Damascus, Baghdad, when these were cosmopolitan, outward-looking, cultured cities which were interested in the rest of the world and were much more like open societies.

And the fact that, in the last half-century, these cultures seem to have slid backwards into medievalism and repression is one of the - I think it's one of the great self-inflicted wounds. And out of that comes the rise of this new, much harsher Islam, come all these phenomena that you're talking about: the thin-skinnedness, the paranoia, the ease with which violence is engaged in, the readiness to believe that it's OK to kill people if you declare yourself offended by something. This is the mindset of the fanatic, the mindset of the tyrant. And it's a real shame that it seems to have spread so widely across the Muslim world.

I'm not sure if people think that The Satanic Verses was childish or provocative, Rushdie is of the opinion that it wouldn't get published these days.

http://www.npr.org/2012/09/17/161253194 ... slim-world

[Animavore]

Animavore,

Read my post again. I said "my initial action" (which was screaming obscenities at Granny).

Yes but you put in one step too many. You should've started with you cursing and your granny going mental. The bit where she tells you she doesn't like you swearing should be left out for you analogy to be accurate.

[Gerald McGrew]

Yes but you put in one step too many. You should've started with you cursing and your granny going mental. The bit where she tells you she doesn't like you swearing should be left out for you analogy to be accurate.

?????????

So you're saying the people who burn Korans, make Mohammed=pedophile movies, or publish Mohammed cartoons have never been told that Muslims are offended by those things?

[Gerald McGrew]

So how 'bout we do this...

Take a pallet of Korans, slather them in pig blood, wrap them in bacon, and set them on fire. Then we take video of the event and send the video to every news outlet in the Middle East.

Would that be a good thing? If so, why?

[Animavore]

So how 'bout we do this...

Take a pallet of Korans, slather them in pig blood, wrap them in bacon, and set them on fire. Then we take video of the event and send the video to every news outlet in the Middle East.

Would that be a good thing? If so, why?

It's neither good nor bad. It's just a bunch of paper and some pig.

[HomerJay]

There are no parallels with interpersonal interactions.

I don't see how that changes anything in a really meaningful way.

It's a question of scalability, what you may or may not do with your grandma does not scale up to be a useful example.

[Animavore]

[JimC]

So how 'bout we do this...

Take a pallet of Korans, slather them in pig blood, wrap them in bacon, and set them on fire. Then we take video of the event and send the video to every news outlet in the Middle East.

Would that be a good thing? If so, why?

It's neither good nor bad. It's just a bunch of paper and some pig.

True, but it's also an action with fairly obvious consequences, and one would have to weigh up whether the demonstration of the freedom to ridicule a religion is worth the possible consequences...

[Audley Strange]

I have no problem with someone doing something with their free speech that is a risk to them. I have no problem with people protesting those actions. However when you start killing people to get your point across, it's time for you to be killed, hard.