The Atheism Plus "movement" -- good, bad, ugly?

[Rum]

I am in favour of feminism. It doesn't matter if I'm not, it is still a good thing.

However I am also cautious about the way it goes about its business because of a personal experience a long time ago when I was a doing my social work degree.

The course I did required two 'placements', i.e. practical experience and plumped for one of mine in as different an environment as I could find - which was a community centre in the middle of a poor area of Bristol.

While I was there I had to do a number of smaller projects and one of them was to get a group together to think up and paint a large mural on the wall of a large meeting hall in the centre.

We got a group started and after a lot of negotiation we agreed that the mural would show slightly abstracted and prettified scenes from the industrial past of Bristol.

One of the bits to do with the heavy industrial period of the early part of the 20th century showed men working in a steel mill and women at home doing housework. This of course was the way things were done back then.

Well a few on the project group were heavy duty feminists and they kicked up a fuss about this (despite the fact that smaller sketches and miniature versions of the mural had been distributed for consultation). They insisted that the images stereotyped women, showed them in inferior roles and all the rest of it. No amount of explaining that the images were meant to reflect the reality of the time and that (in my view as a pretty heavy duty Marxist at the time) that their labour was as exploited as much as that of the men.

In the end I was forced to change the mural by the centre manager, who was also my placement supervisor. He threatened me with failing the placement if I didn't.

So - the cause of feminism required the re-writing of actual historical facts. I left the placement, just scraping through and very pissed off indeed.

Are you in favour of feminism rum or are you in favour of women's rights? There is clearly a difference and that distinction was made by Feminists.

You cannot reason with them. I've been trying for decades, everything is vague or anecdotal or just nonsense rhetoric. Feminism is not about fighting for Women's rights its about highlighting some men's wrongs and claiming that evidence of systematic oppression even to the extent of asking someone for a fucking coffee.

It is an interesting distinction and one I understand, however there are not many oppressed groups (which women most certainly were and arguably still are to some extent) which won equal rights simply by asking for them. Action is usually required and that is what the feminist movement provided in the past and perhaps still does. Which is not to say there aren't aspects of it that I think are illogical, irrelevant or plain bonkers.

[Taqiyya Mockingbird]

Fuck - I've entered into an argument over there about so called 'mansplaining'. Apparently because I am in a position of privilege I do it whether I know it or not. I am already fuming.

I think I had better leave before I am banned.

Better still perhaps wait to be banned...

Edit: This should be in the Declared War thread..copying it.

Mansplaining/privilege = their religion's version of Original Sin.


(Really. What the fuck does this "privilege" red herring shit even MEAN? -- other than a cheap way to ad hom themselves out of any fallacy they get cornered wallowing in!)

[Bella Fortuna]

Taqiyya, you should venture out beyond this thread into the rest of the forum!

[Audley Strange]

@ Rum.

What action though against what oppression? Suffrage was long before most of the first wave mothers were shipped out to factories while their fathers went off to fight trivial things like Fascism. The Women's institute took up the case directly after the first world war here and the civil rights movement was allied with women's rights over the pond. So what did feminism have to offer that they didn't ?

Suffragettes drowned on soup, were ran over by horses, women's right's activists went to prison, Feminists wrote misandrist rants, burnt underwear and harped on about how wonderful their vaginas were and how everything was daddy's men's fault. Somehow we let that slide because we assumed they were after the same things most people were i.e. equal human and civil rights. It's been clear, even to many many feminists who have stopped claiming they are feminists because it is an intellectually bankrupt hate cult, that there is a distinction between their positions on women's issues and women's rights and the extreme position of many who identify with the movement.

It's the same reason I don't identify with socialists although I have many left wing views. I don't need some spotty first year middle class politics prick give me shit about how he's down with the underclass and I'm a tory because I don't believe in every single point of his thin patchwork ideology as gospel. He's an idiot or perhaps ideot. An ideological bot, a Pzombie programmed by the first plausible sounding ideology to enter his fucking consciousness. Plenty of thoughts, no actual thinking.

They are like pantomime versions of political movements that are themselves farcical. They are earnest, naive, angry at the world and arrogant enough to believe they have the keys to utopia. Deaf ears in other words.

[Rum]

Fuck - I've entered into an argument over there about so called 'mansplaining'. Apparently because I am in a position of privilege I do it whether I know it or not. I am already fuming.

I think I had better leave before I am banned.

Better still perhaps wait to be banned...

Edit: This should be in the Declared War thread..copying it.

Mansplaining/privilege = their religion's version of Original Sin.


(Really. What the fuck does this "privilege" red herring shit even MEAN? -- other than a cheap way to ad hom themselves out of any fallacy they get cornered wallowing in!)

The 'privilege' idea is central to the social justice model subscribed to by many feminists. It is actually a pretty useful tool for thinking about power in society. Unfortunately it warps the way you think if you take it too seriously! Here's a good article if you are interested.

http://nymbp.org/reference/WhitePrivilege.pdf

And what Bella said!

[Rum]

@ Rum.

What action though against what oppression? Suffrage was long before most of the first wave mothers were shipped out to factories while their fathers went off to fight trivial things like Fascism. The Women's institute took up the case directly after the first world war here and the civil rights movement was allied with women's rights over the pond. So what did feminism have to offer that they didn't ?

Suffragettes drowned on soup, were ran over by horses, women's right's activists went to prison, Feminists wrote misandrist rants, burnt underwear and harped on about how wonderful their vaginas were and how everything was daddy's men's fault. Somehow we let that slide because we assumed they were after the same things most people were i.e. equal human and civil rights. It's been clear, even to many many feminists who have stopped claiming they are feminists because it is an intellectually bankrupt hate cult, that there is a distinction between their positions on women's issues and women's rights and the extreme position of many who identify with the movement.

It's the same reason I don't identify with socialists although I have many left wing views. I don't need some spotty first year middle class politics prick give me shit about how he's down with the underclass and I'm a tory because I don't believe in every single point of his thin patchwork ideology as gospel. He's an idiot or perhaps ideot. An ideological bot, a Pzombie programmed by the first plausible sounding ideology to enter his fucking consciousness. Plenty of thoughts, no actual thinking.

They are like pantomime versions of political movements that are themselves farcical. They are earnest, naive, angry at the world and arrogant enough to believe they have the keys to utopia. Deaf ears in other words.

Women are still paid less than men. Women have less political power and are less represented in senior positions. They have a worse deal on the whole than men in many respects - certainly financially, so there is still some ways to go. Which is not to say there hasn't been a great deal of progress. Not to mention the position of women in much of the rest of the world.

I should stop speaking on behalf of the girls though.

[Taqiyya Mockingbird]

Well if he has, they practically invited him.

I am on another forum whose software automatically replaces the word "Mabus" with "fucktard".


I love it...

[Taqiyya Mockingbird]

Taqiyya, you should venture out beyond this thread into the rest of the forum!

Why, fankies, Bella!

[colubridae]

Taqiyya, you should venture out beyond this thread into the rest of the forum!

Why, fankies, Bella!

No don't do it.

Be afraid, be very afraid.

[Bella Fortuna]

Taqiyya, you should venture out beyond this thread into the rest of the forum!

Why, fankies, Bella!

And if I may be so bold - get yourself an avatar... take off your shoes, stay awhile!

[Bella Fortuna]

Taqiyya, you should venture out beyond this thread into the rest of the forum!

Why, fankies, Bella!

No don't do it.

Be afraid, be very afraid.

Quiet, you! You're going to get the hose again!

[colubridae]

Taqiyya, you should venture out beyond this thread into the rest of the forum!

Why, fankies, Bella!

No don't do it.

Be afraid, be very afraid.

Quiet, you! You're going to get the hose again!

Hmmm whiche end?

[Bella Fortuna]

Taqiyya, you should venture out beyond this thread into the rest of the forum!

Why, fankies, Bella!

No don't do it.

Be afraid, be very afraid.

Quiet, you! You're going to get the hose again!

Hmmm whiche end?

Both.

[Audley Strange]

Women are still paid less than men. Women have less political power and are less represented in senior positions. They have a worse deal on the whole than men in many respects - certainly financially, so there is still some ways to go. Which is not to say there hasn't been a great deal of progress. Not to mention the position of women in much of the rest of the world.

I should stop speaking on behalf of the girls though.

Well I've pointed out the problems with regards to women in political positions, even given quota's and invitations and practically begging them to get involved, from all major parties in the U.K. The interest does not appear to be there. Perhaps it's the imagined hostile atmosphere that is commonly projected. Perhaps what we need is to do what they do in the olympics though and separate the sexes in such competitive atmospheres. We could have women's government, which women pay their taxes to and we could have men's government. Woman's finance capitalism and men's finance capitalism. Or perhaps the interest is not there. Anyway why do women need to be represented in senior positions exactly? If it is a private company surely you can't be saying we should be forcing them to hire women for positions that they might find a man better for?

[Sean Hayden]

Quiet, you! You're going to get the hose again!