Would you support physical castration for sex offenders?

[Kristie]

I understand the depth of feeling, but one of the reasons justice is 'blind' is so that emotion and revenge aren't part of the calculation. If everyone got the outcome they wanted emotionally from the wrongs done to them and their loved ones we would live in a pretty bloody state of affairs.

That's true, if the emotion outcome is unreasonable or not fitting. In this case, it's both. Wanting someone dead because they totaled your car, that's not reasonable. Wanting someone dead because they raped and killed your child, or someone else's child, completely reasonable.

[Rum]

Well it may to to you, but not to me. So where does that leave it in terms of reasonableness? I simply don't believe in the death sentence. It makes us less rather than more.

[Kristie]

Well it may to to you, but not to me. So where does that leave it in terms of reasonableness? I simply don't believe in the death sentence. It makes us less rather than more.

Less what? Less chance of another child getting hurt by a repeat offender?

[Pappa]

Well it may to to you, but not to me. So where does that leave it in terms of reasonableness? I simply don't believe in the death sentence. It makes us less rather than more.

Less what? Less chance of another child getting hurt by a repeat offender?

That's a false duality Kristie. You're implying that by not killing them, they'll obviously be able to re-offend.

[Kristie]

Well it may to to you, but not to me. So where does that leave it in terms of reasonableness? I simply don't believe in the death sentence. It makes us less rather than more.

Less what? Less chance of another child getting hurt by a repeat offender?

That's a false duality Kristie. You're implying that by not killing them, they'll obviously be able to re-offend.

They will be able to re-offend. Unless you imprison them for life. But, with our screwed up justice system, that's not likely.

[Rum]

Well it may to to you, but not to me. So where does that leave it in terms of reasonableness? I simply don't believe in the death sentence. It makes us less rather than more.

Less what? Less chance of another child getting hurt by a repeat offender?

It makes us less civilized, less understanding of the human condition, more vengeful and angry. It puts us on the same level as the offender. I don't see it as weakness or even compassionate towards the offender either. A life spent in custody knowing what you did and thinking about it every day must be some kind of hell all in itself unless you are the worst kind of psychopath.

And as Pappa says there's an assumption there that they will repeat their offense. Many serious child molesters never see the light of day.

[Kristie]

Well it may to to you, but not to me. So where does that leave it in terms of reasonableness? I simply don't believe in the death sentence. It makes us less rather than more.

Less what? Less chance of another child getting hurt by a repeat offender?

It makes us less civilized, less understanding of the human condition, more vengeful and angry. It puts us on the same level as the offender. I don't see it as weakness or even compassionate towards the offender either. A life spent in custody knowing what you did and thinking about it every day must be some kind of hell all in itself unless you are the worst kind of psychopath.

And as Pappa says there's an assumption there that they will repeat their offense. Many serious child molesters never see the light of day.

And what about the worst kind of psychopath?

This is what I found about prison time for aggravated child molestation:
"Since enacting SB 441, the average sentence received for a new
conviction on aggravated child molestation has jumped from
about 12 years to about 19 years. In contrast, the average sentences
received for child molestation only went from about 6
years to about 7 years. Sentence length for statutory rape even
dropped from about 6 years to 5; while the average sentence
received for other child sex offenses remained around 4 years.
However, the percent of sentence served by all convicted child
sex offenders has substantially increased . Before 1996, child
sex offenders, on average, served less than 60% of their sentence
(figure 4). Since that time, they serve 90% to 100% of
their sentence."
http://www.dcor.state.ga.us/Research/St ... ildren.pdf

This is in Georgia, but it's probably safe to assume it's pretty average of the whole US.
19 years for aggravated child molestation? They will get out in plenty of time to re-offend. And they will re-offend. The number on violent offenders re-offending are staggering.

[Tyrannical]

Well it may to to you, but not to me. So where does that leave it in terms of reasonableness? I simply don't believe in the death sentence. It makes us less rather than more.

Less what? Less chance of another child getting hurt by a repeat offender?

It makes us less civilized, less understanding of the human condition, more vengeful and angry. It puts us on the same level as the offender. I don't see it as weakness or even compassionate towards the offender either. A life spent in custody knowing what you did and thinking about it every day must be some kind of hell all in itself unless you are the worst kind of psychopath.

And as Pappa says there's an assumption there that they will repeat their offense. Many serious child molesters never see the light of day.

A civilized society eliminates the criminal element so that it may not prey upon the citizenry.

[SteveB]

What if it's a female sex offender? Take out her ovaries?

[Rum]

Well it may to to you, but not to me. So where does that leave it in terms of reasonableness? I simply don't believe in the death sentence. It makes us less rather than more.

Less what? Less chance of another child getting hurt by a repeat offender?

It makes us less civilized, less understanding of the human condition, more vengeful and angry. It puts us on the same level as the offender. I don't see it as weakness or even compassionate towards the offender either. A life spent in custody knowing what you did and thinking about it every day must be some kind of hell all in itself unless you are the worst kind of psychopath.

And as Pappa says there's an assumption there that they will repeat their offense. Many serious child molesters never see the light of day.

And what about the worst kind of psychopath?

This is what I found about prison time for aggravated child molestation:
"Since enacting SB 441, the average sentence received for a new
conviction on aggravated child molestation has jumped from
about 12 years to about 19 years. In contrast, the average sentences
received for child molestation only went from about 6
years to about 7 years. Sentence length for statutory rape even
dropped from about 6 years to 5; while the average sentence
received for other child sex offenses remained around 4 years.
However, the percent of sentence served by all convicted child
sex offenders has substantially increased . Before 1996, child
sex offenders, on average, served less than 60% of their sentence
(figure 4). Since that time, they serve 90% to 100% of
their sentence."
http://www.dcor.state.ga.us/Research/St ... ildren.pdf

This is in Georgia, but it's probably safe to assume it's pretty average of the whole US.
19 years for aggravated child molestation? They will get out in plenty of time to re-offend. And they will re-offend. The number on violent offenders re-offending are staggering.

In which case the sentencing regulations need to be changed. Your point is not an argument in itself for the death penalty. Lock 'em up and throw away the key if you like. Fine by me.

[Kristie]

In which case the sentencing regulations need to be changed. Your point is not an argument in itself for the death penalty. Lock 'em up and throw away the key if you like. Fine by me.

I wasn't trying to argue for the death penalty, per se. I was trying to show that the current sentences aren't sufficient. That re-offending is totally a possibility, and likely. That even aggravated offenders get off fairly easy. I could live with them spending life in prison, if that's what actually happened. It's not my first choice, that would be death, but it would certainly be better than 19 years.

[Rum]

We have here what is called an 'indeterminate sentence'. (It used to be called 'at her majesty's pleasure' believe it or not!). This could be life and often was, but was essentially up until a parole board agreed unanimously that the sentence could continue outside of prison.

[Blind groper]

I understand the depth of feeling, but one of the reasons justice is 'blind' is so that emotion and revenge aren't part of the calculation. If everyone got the outcome they wanted emotionally from the wrongs done to them and their loved ones we would live in a pretty bloody state of affairs.

Well done, Rum.

In spite of the fact that this forum is called "rationalia", when we discuss emotive topics like this one, we get to see little truly rational thought. It is nice to see you presenting solid, sensible, and rational responses.

[Rum]

Well that was a nice thing to say.

However I do understand how Kristie feels even if I disagree profoundly with her position.

[Svartalf]

If somebody wants to be worth the same as a human as an arab fundy muslim, that's their problem.

Corporal punishment short of death is something I absolutely oppose.