The Atheism Plus "movement" -- good, bad, ugly?

[Audley Strange]

I don't blame Jen McChreight for quitting her blog if the comments were triggering her chronic depression. I'm not sure why she didn't just keep on writing, and shut off comments-- but maybe she has her own reasons.

I don't understand what this has to do with reactions to A+.

Perhaps because she used her blog to initiate Ape Lust as a super active safe place social justice movement of truth against the forces of evil and quit her crusade the following week because she can't take ridicule that she seemed to find funny last year. It evinces her priority is herself. Not a bad thing you understand, but pretty poor show when you want to start a "revolution."

[A Hermit]

Gosh, really? That's why women speakers cancelled their plans to attend? Even though it was "no worse than life in general", they felt it wasn't safe enough to attend? Huh. Either you haven't been paying attention, or you're trying to recreate history.

You have it wrong. Rebecca Watson decided not to attend because she was being wrongly blamed for declining attendance in spite of all her efforts to recruit women to come to TAM and raise funds oer the years. Not because she didn't feel safe.

Great Christina decided not to go after she got what at the time sounded like a threat.

Surly Amy went and was subjected to a concerted, organized campaign of mockery. SO I wou;dn't blame her for not going back.

And therein we see the problem. As soon as someone merely questions one aspect of a specific policy....why, they must be against having a policy at all!! You're simply one step short of calling me an MRA, misogynist, rape-apologist.

Bullshit. There has been all kinds of debate about the details of policies. You're just too thin-skinned.

Crommunist started a thread on my post and the comments contain a discussion of what happened at PZ's blog. I don't go there anymore (clicks = money for people I don't support), but you can see it by Googling "crommunist gerald". It's the first hit.

Yes I remember that exchange now...you were doing fine and having a respectful conversation until you made that remark about "fat ugly women" hitting on you...I understand the point you were making (I disagree with it, but I get it) but you expressed it very badly and things went downhill. Lets not pretend you were entirely guiltless in that exchange...

But again, this isn't about me. This is about the reasons why some people have the impression that the FtB/Skepchicks group have become irrational and intolerant of serious dissent, specifically regarding feminist issues. This thread is rife with specific posts documenting that.

This thread is rife with strawmen, exaggerations and self rightousness...

I'm not talking about "elevatorgate".

I am.

I'm talking about the "Rebecca Watson ruins everything" campaign, the blind acceptance of every accusation she makes,

For example?????

and the hypocrisy in reactions between thunderfoot's and RW's unauthorized access to information.

Two wrongs dont make a right...didn't we do this already?

Yeah, I'll defend Rebecca Watson; I don't think she deserves the anger and hate directed at her, or the rape threats.

Is she immune from criticism? Beyond question? Above standards of evidence? Is holding her to the same standards we expect of everyone else indicative of someone who thinks she deserves rape threats?

Of course not. Is bringing her up as a reason to be angry over A+ when she has nothing to do with A* reasonable? Does she deserve to be dragged into every debate even tangetially touching on feminism as some sort of all purpose punching bag? Why the obsession with rebecca Watson?

Why do you even feel the need to state that you don't think she deserves rape threats? Are you implying that I do?

I don't know...do you?

Um...no. He "retracted and apologized for some of [his] actions". Did he apologize specifically for anything?

Yes, yes he did; For using terms like 'retard" for one thing...go read the comments.

And again....another attempt at rewriting history. TF was specifically told he could blog about anything he wanted and was even encouraged to "rip into" other FtB posts. Except he didn't realize that didn't include the FtB's version of feminism.

I'm not going to re-litigate the whole thing; from my point of view he was invited to dinner and spent the whole time insulting the other guests and complaining about the food so he was asked to lave. Boo fucking hoo...

Again, look through this thread. Calls to have people monitored on other blogs, forums, and online communities with banishment for anyone who says something the A+ crowd doesn't approve of? You gonna defend that?

Paranoid bullshit...calls to have people monitored? What the fuck are you talking about? This is a fantasy of your own creation I think. And banishment from what? IS someone going to take away youur atheist membership and send you to Siberia? DO you realize how insane this sounds?

You've just demonstrated my point for me...almost perfectly. I offer my impressions of recent events, but since they're not favorable to FtB/Skepchicks/A+, well then I must be against treating women and minorities respectfully!

Your impressions seem to be a load of self serving nonsense frankly.

[orpheus]

Gosh, really? That's why women speakers cancelled their plans to attend? Even though it was "no worse than life in general", they felt it wasn't safe enough to attend? Huh. Either you haven't been paying attention, or you're trying to recreate history.

You have it wrong. Rebecca Watson decided not to attend because she was being wrongly blamed for declining attendance in spite of all her efforts to recruit women to come to TAM and raise funds oer the years. Not because she didn't feel safe.

Great Christina decided not to go after she got what at the time sounded like a threat.

Surly Amy went and was subjected to a concerted, organized campaign of mockery. SO I wou;dn't blame her for not going back.

And therein we see the problem. As soon as someone merely questions one aspect of a specific policy....why, they must be against having a policy at all!! You're simply one step short of calling me an MRA, misogynist, rape-apologist.

Bullshit. There has been all kinds of debate about the details of policies. You're just too thin-skinned.

Crommunist started a thread on my post and the comments contain a discussion of what happened at PZ's blog. I don't go there anymore (clicks = money for people I don't support), but you can see it by Googling "crommunist gerald". It's the first hit.

Yes I remember that exchange now...you were doing fine and having a respectful conversation until you made that remark about "fat ugly women" hitting on you...I understand the point you were making (I disagree with it, but I get it) but you expressed it very badly and things went downhill. Lets not pretend you were entirely guiltless in that exchange...

But again, this isn't about me. This is about the reasons why some people have the impression that the FtB/Skepchicks group have become irrational and intolerant of serious dissent, specifically regarding feminist issues. This thread is rife with specific posts documenting that.

This thread is rife with strawmen, exaggerations and self rightousness...

I'm not talking about "elevatorgate".

I am.

I'm talking about the "Rebecca Watson ruins everything" campaign, the blind acceptance of every accusation she makes,

For example?????

and the hypocrisy in reactions between thunderfoot's and RW's unauthorized access to information.

Two wrongs dont make a right...didn't we do this already?

Yeah, I'll defend Rebecca Watson; I don't think she deserves the anger and hate directed at her, or the rape threats.

Is she immune from criticism? Beyond question? Above standards of evidence? Is holding her to the same standards we expect of everyone else indicative of someone who thinks she deserves rape threats?

Of course not. Is bringing her up as a reason to be angry over A+ when she has nothing to do with A* reasonable? Does she deserve to be dragged into every debate even tangetially touching on feminism as some sort of all purpose punching bag? Why the obsession with rebecca Watson?

Why do you even feel the need to state that you don't think she deserves rape threats? Are you implying that I do?

I don't know...do you?

Um...no. He "retracted and apologized for some of [his] actions". Did he apologize specifically for anything?

Yes, yes he did; For using terms like 'retard" for one thing...go read the comments.

And again....another attempt at rewriting history. TF was specifically told he could blog about anything he wanted and was even encouraged to "rip into" other FtB posts. Except he didn't realize that didn't include the FtB's version of feminism.

I'm not going to re-litigate the whole thing; from my point of view he was invited to dinner and spent the whole time insulting the other guests and complaining about the food so he was asked to lave. Boo fucking hoo...

Again, look through this thread. Calls to have people monitored on other blogs, forums, and online communities with banishment for anyone who says something the A+ crowd doesn't approve of? You gonna defend that?

Paranoid bullshit...calls to have people monitored? What the fuck are you talking about? This is a fantasy of your own creation I think. And banishment from what? IS someone going to take away youur atheist membership and send you to Siberia? DO you realize how insane this sounds?

You've just demonstrated my point for me...almost perfectly. I offer my impressions of recent events, but since they're not favorable to FtB/Skepchicks/A+, well then I must be against treating women and minorities respectfully!

Your impressions seem to be a load of self serving nonsense frankly.

No, Hermit, actually he's right.

[hadespussercats]

I don't blame Jen McChreight for quitting her blog if the comments were triggering her chronic depression. I'm not sure why she didn't just keep on writing, and shut off comments-- but maybe she has her own reasons.

I don't understand what this has to do with reactions to A+.

Perhaps because she used her blog to initiate Ape Lust as a super active safe place social justice movement of truth against the forces of evil and quit her crusade the following week because she can't take ridicule that she seemed to find funny last year. It evinces her priority is herself. Not a bad thing you understand, but pretty poor show when you want to start a "revolution."

Well, she used her blog to publicize/kick off the forum, but that's done now, so why keep the blog open? The forum and related efforts are still moving forward-- she hasn't quit her crusade (if you want to call it that-- I'm not sure that's really what it is. It seems more like a social network.)

I don't know her history, so I'm not sure what last year's ridicule signifies. But, when you have chronic depression, sometimes you really "can't take" treatment that other people handle in stride. If her illness is acting up, I don't blame her for protecting her brain space (though I do blame the A+ movement, or whatever you want to call it, for protecting their brain space-- i.e.- not tolerating dissent. A social and political movement should be held to more stringent standards than those applied to a single individual within it who happens to suffer from mental illness.)

[charlou]

Yup ^

[Sean Hayden]

Absolutely, and I'm right to be sick of the amount of attention being paid to problems that don't warrant it.

I can handle what that may say about me. I think it should be said though, and often now until such a time that every other week a significant part of the little web I care about isn't consumed by a handful of people -with great support networks- triggering undue emotion and wasting efforts.

[Robert_S]

Absolutely, and I'm right to be sick of the amount of attention being paid to problems that don't warrant it.

I can handle what that may say about me. I think it should be said though, and often now until such a time that every other week a significant part of the little web I care about isn't consumed by a handful of people -with great support networks- triggering undue emotion and wasting efforts.

You mean how people bitching about Skepchics/FtB and now A+ all over the goddamn skeptic/atheist intertube space?

Few people here would know or care what they were doing if some people weren't so fucking obsessed with that crowd. I swear some of the anti-A+&co stuff looks like the digital equivalent of dropping frogs down their shirts.

I do read some stuff that sounds whiney out of the Skepchick/FtB/A+ folks, but I read about 10x more whinging about the whinging. OMFG!!!! SOMEONE IZ OVERREACTING ON TEH INTERNETZZ!11!!one! SOMEBODY DO SOMETHING!!!!!

And here I am whinging about whinging about whinging. It's getting fucking surreal now.

[orpheus]

I don't know her history, so I'm not sure what last year's ridicule signifies. But, when you have chronic depression, sometimes you really "can't take" treatment that other people handle in stride. If her illness is acting up, I don't blame her for protecting her brain space (though I do blame the A+ movement, or whatever you want to call it, for protecting their brain space-- i.e.- not tolerating dissent. A social and political movement should be held to more stringent standards than those applied to a single individual within it who happens to suffer from mental illness.)

(bold mine)

This is very true. As a fellow sufferer, I certainly can empathize.

[Sean Hayden]

You mean how people bitching about Skepchics/FtB and now A+ all over the goddamn skeptic/atheist intertube space?

Few people here would know or care what they were doing if some people weren't so fucking obsessed with that crowd. I swear some of the anti-A+&co stuff looks like the digital equivalent of dropping frogs down their shirts.

I do read some stuff that sounds whiney out of the Skepchick/FtB/A+ folks, but I read about 10x more whinging about the whinging. OMFG!!!! SOMEONE IZ OVERREACTING ON TEH INTERNETZZ!11!!one! SOMEBODY DO SOMETHING!!!!!

And here I am whinging about whinging about whinging. It's getting fucking surreal now.

That is probably a fair assessment. Definitely the whinging about whinging about whinging.

[Gerald McGrew]

You have it wrong. Rebecca Watson decided not to attend because she was being wrongly blamed for declining attendance in spite of all her efforts to recruit women to come to TAM and raise funds oer the years. Not because she didn't feel safe.

Again you attempt to rewrite history. Why was RW blamed for declining attendance? Because she was part of the group that was claiming TAM was an unsafe environment for women. She specifically stated, "This is quite obviously not a safe space for me or for other women who want to be free of the gendered slurs and sexual threats and come-ons we experience in our day-to-day lives". In a USA Today article, she said about the freethought community, "The biggest lesson I have learned over the years is that it is not a safe space and we have a lot of growing to do". Gosh, I can't imagine why anyone would be blaming her for giving women the impression that the conferences were worse than the regular world when it comes to sexual harassment.

Stop playing games.

Surly Amy went and was subjected to a concerted, organized campaign of mockery. SO I wou;dn't blame her for not going back.

Yeah, it's just awful when people wear t-shirts that say "I feel safe" and "I'm not one of you".

Let's see now...what was my point? The general sense that some of the FtB/Skepchick community are irrational when it comes to feminism? Gee...where would anyone get that idea?

Bullshit. There has been all kinds of debate about the details of policies. You're just too thin-skinned.

LOL! PZ told me if I posted one more time about that subject, he would ban me from his blog. Your rhetoric isn't matching up to reality.

Yes I remember that exchange now...you were doing fine and having a respectful conversation until you made that remark about "fat ugly women" hitting on you...I understand the point you were making (I disagree with it, but I get it) but you expressed it very badly and things went downhill. Lets not pretend you were entirely guiltless in that exchange...

What's wrong with that? Surely no one is taking that position that fat ugly women don't exist? Or that if one were to hit on me in a bar, I am not allowed to refuse? No, that whole discussion told me a lot about FtB, PZ, and the style of feminism they advocated. It's entirely consistent with the point of my posts, which you are demonstrating quite well.

For example?????

Where's elevator guy? Where's the documented rape threats she's received from members of the atheist community?

Two wrongs dont make a right...didn't we do this already?

I didn't say either one was right. I simply noted that when TF sneaked into a group and accessed private information, the FtB'ers went ballistic, including calling for him to be drummed out of the atheist community and stealing his money. But did those same people call for the same actions against RW? Nope.

It's called "hypocrisy". Look it up.

Of course not. Is bringing her up as a reason to be angry over A+ when she has nothing to do with A* reasonable? Does she deserve to be dragged into every debate even tangetially touching on feminism as some sort of all purpose punching bag? Why the obsession with rebecca Watson?

I'm simply citing her as one example among many of why there is a general impression that the FtB/Skepchick/A+ group is irrational on the issue of feminism.

Why do you even feel the need to state that you don't think she deserves rape threats? Are you implying that I do?

I don't know...do you?

Seriously? FFS...you just keep making my point for me.

Yes, yes he did; For using terms like 'retard" for one thing...go read the comments.

LOL! How big of him. But not for anything specific about his W. Bush "you're either with us or against us" BS?

I'm not going to re-litigate the whole thing; from my point of view he was invited to dinner and spent the whole time insulting the other guests and complaining about the food so he was asked to lave. Boo fucking hoo...

Yeah, I bet you don't want to re-litigate. The facts simply aren't on your side. TF was specifically told he could blog about anything, there would be no attempt to control the content of his blog, and he was encouraged to "rip into" other FtB'ers. He just wasn't told that feminism was a third rail issue.

Paranoid bullshit...calls to have people monitored? What the fuck are you talking about? This is a fantasy of your own creation I think. And banishment from what? IS someone going to take away youur atheist membership and send you to Siberia? DO you realize how insane this sounds?

http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 5#p1259863

Oops.

Your impressions seem to be a load of self serving nonsense frankly.

Actually, I think I've made my point extremely well. I merely noted that the view among some people that the FtB/Skepchick group is irrational about feminism and is largely intolerant of dissent is based on multiple documented incidents and statements by several members of that group. I've substantiated that point with multiple examples. Your only response is to either attempt to rewrite history or say you don't want to talk about it.

Unless you have anything more to offer, I believe we're done.

[Gerald McGrew]

Also Sprach Gerald:

" You've just demonstrated my point for me...almost perfectly. I offer my impressions of recent events, but since they're not favorable to FtB/Skepchicks/A+, well then I must be against treating women and minorities respectfully!

That's exactly what I described in my post and along you come and unwittingly become my Exhibit A. Thank you very much."

A Jon Stewart "Oh snap"? You made my day!

[colubridae]

Why not deliberately misinterpret my words?
You've just done what pissed everyone off so much. Do you not understand?

Dictatorship as espoused by FtB et al coupled with veiled threats is exactly what's caused the furore.
Deliberately linking repugnance of your dictatorial stance to homophobia etc. is precisely what’s got many worked up.

Who's misinterpreting here? It's this constant bullshit about "dictatorship" and "tyranny" that is the misrepresentation.

Telling posters what they must/must not say is dictatorship!

Do you understand that my hatred of dictatorships does not make me a homophobe, etc? Refusal to bend my knee to your worship does not make me a racist or sexist.

Do you understand that a group of people deciding to work together to stand up against things like racism, sexism and homophobia is not a dictatorship? Do you own a dictionary? I can help you find one online if you like...

You are a dictatorship. Espousing high ideals doesn’t de facto make you a dictatorship. It’s the way you go about it that makes you a dictatorship. Please re-read this dictionary that you are so fond of.

To demand obedience al la Carrier is the very nadir of humanity. All else pales into insignificance. Your own Matt Dillahunty once said that ‘slavery is probably the only absolute immorality’. The unquestioning obedience you and your ilk demand is slavery.

What a load of ignorant, self serving, bullshit. Everyone involved in A+ jumped on Carrier for that over the top post, and he apologized, retracted it and promised not to do it again. To take that one post and claim that it somehow represents everything about A+ looks like laziness, stupidity or dishonesty. Possibly all three...

Check the evidence. Right down to threats of exposing identities… etc.

laziness, stupidity or dishonesty…

sheesh Please tell me that you are a poe.

[colubridae]

To demand obedience al la Carrier is the very nadir of humanity. All else pales into insignificance. Your own Matt Dillahunty once said that ‘slavery is probably the only absolute immorality’. The unquestioning obedience you and your ilk demand is slavery.

What a load of ignorant, self serving, bullshit. Everyone involved in A+ jumped on Carrier for that over the top post, and he apologized, retracted it and promised not to do it again. To take that one post and claim that it somehow represents everything about A+ looks like laziness, stupidity or dishonesty. Possibly all three...

Pappa aplogised for his joke. That apology was rejected out of hand. Now you hold up carrier’s ‘apology’ as a thing of beauty to be admired and cherished.
Double standards. Meh. Go look in the mirror.

Honestly you don’t know whether you’ve been shot, fucked or snake-bit

[Audley Strange]

Absolutely, and I'm right to be sick of the amount of attention being paid to problems that don't warrant it.

I can handle what that may say about me. I think it should be said though, and often now until such a time that every other week a significant part of the little web I care about isn't consumed by a handful of people -with great support networks- triggering undue emotion and wasting efforts.

You mean how people bitching about Skepchics/FtB and now A+ all over the goddamn skeptic/atheist intertube space?

Few people here would know or care what they were doing if some people weren't so fucking obsessed with that crowd. I swear some of the anti-A+&co stuff looks like the digital equivalent of dropping frogs down their shirts.

I do read some stuff that sounds whiney out of the Skepchick/FtB/A+ folks, but I read about 10x more whinging about the whinging. OMFG!!!! SOMEONE IZ OVERREACTING ON TEH INTERNETZZ!11!!one! SOMEBODY DO SOMETHING!!!!!

And here I am whinging about whinging about whinging. It's getting fucking surreal now.

You should start your own atheism splinter movement too. Call it Atheism Y as in "Y u not all be cool liek me?" Then I'll start Atheism NO! which protests this new fashionable aloof style atheist by claiming that your whinging about whinging about whinging is actually a form of illuminati lizard oppression against rodents and that you're like being so unreasonable and that.

Soon we can all have our own blog to flounce from and our own individual seperatist unilateral "movement" forums of one. Perhaps then we can go back to what atheism was before someone thought it a good idea to herd those cats.

Or we could give up our reason and spent out time pandering to the attentive needs of the Richard Dworkins.

[Taqiyya Mockingbird]

Absolutely, and I'm right to be sick of the amount of attention being paid to problems that don't warrant it.

I can handle what that may say about me. I think it should be said though, and often now until such a time that every other week a significant part of the little web I care about isn't consumed by a handful of people -with great support networks- triggering undue emotion and wasting efforts.

You mean how people bitching about Skepchics/FtB and now A+ all over the goddamn skeptic/atheist intertube space?

Few people here would know or care what they were doing if some people weren't so fucking obsessed with that crowd. I swear some of the anti-A+&co stuff looks like the digital equivalent of dropping frogs down their shirts.

I do read some stuff that sounds whiney out of the Skepchick/FtB/A+ folks, but I read about 10x more whinging about the whinging. OMFG!!!! SOMEONE IZ OVERREACTING ON TEH INTERNETZZ!11!!one! SOMEBODY DO SOMETHING!!!!!

And here I am whinging about whinging about whinging. It's getting fucking surreal now.