UK Wealth Tax Needed; Rich Not Paying Fair Share

[padraic]

With full employment and high wages I don't see why you'd even need high taxation

That amounts to fuck-you-Jack-I'm-OK Libertarianism

One of the purposes of taxation is the redistribution of wealth.

A government needs a solid tax base for infrastructure and social justice; EG; Defence, Law and Order, roads, decent standards of health, education and welfare. Without a solid, relatively equitable tax base, you end up with--THE US

[Seth]

Not really. Just because they call it "rent" doesn't mean it is. Any exaction from me must have a rational nexus to some government service or amenity that I do, or can make use of. Exactions intended to be a simple redistributive transfer of my wealth to someone else, regardless of their perceived or actual "need" don't qualify as "rent," they are simply a taking perpetrated by the government for the benefit of someone else from which I receive no benefit.

You can say that I owe you a living, but unless I've agreed to provide it to you, it's just an excuse you use to wield the mace of state to steal what is mine for your own benefit. That's just theft. That you might have the power to perpetrate such a theft doesn't make it rational or moral. The will of the collective is not axiomatically moral or correct just because it's what the majority wants.

The government/society service you get is being permitted to exist in such a society, what you think its free to live in a civilized society?. You think merely being born gives you the right to to run earn money or own property. Nope that costs in taxes and obeying the law

Fuck that. Society doesn't grant me rights, my rights are inherent in my humanity and society can only infringe on my rights if I allow it to. You may buy into any bullshit your government feeds you about what it "needs" from you, but I don't. My government is supposed to work for me and protect me, not rob me blind to fund fuckwitted dependent class socialists who can't hold a job.

[Seth]

Why should I care about the crack-head who takes my money in the form of a welfare check to buy more crack and doesn't care to get a job and support herself?

It is not possible to support a crack habit on welfare.

Which fails to explain why we pay welfare to so many crack-heads.

Such people turn to crime to support their habit, if they do not have a high paying job or business.

\

Yup. And we're also paying them welfare. How stupid is that?

There are management methods for this kind of drug problem, but that is for another thread.

I call it the "Hotel California Plan." You create drug houses that offer for free any drug in any amount in pure pharmaceutical grades to anyone who checks in. The only catch is that you can't check out until you check out, and you leave in a body bag with a toe tag.

Personally, the only thing I got from my government was a small subsidy towards my education. After leaving university with my bright and shiny new degree, I spent 40 years working hard and paying between 25% and 40% tax. I am now retired but still not drawing on the state for my sustenance, since I am living on my own investments.

My political beliefs are neither socialist idiot or right wing looney. I believe in balance, and there is something to be said for the best from both left wing and right wing ideas. I do not believe in dumping society's failures in some kind of garbage bin, where they simply turn to crime and make things far worse. Some kind of caring is needed, and this needs taxes. I seriously resent, though, the very rich avoiding taxes, and paying a tiny proportion of their income, while laughing at society, where the poorer workers and middle class are paying a much greater percentage to the government.

The idiocy in your argument is that that "tiny proportion of their income" paid by the very wealthy amounts to more than 40 percent of the money the government collects, while the "much greater percentage" (and factually it's really not that much greater at all) paid by "the poorer workers and middle class" amounts to a drop in the bucket, less than 3 per cent of revenues that's generated by the bottom 50 percent. The top tier income tax rate on capital gains is 15 percent if your ordinary tax rate is 25 percent or above and ZERO if you're in the 15 percent tax bracket. The tax rate on incomes under $35,350 and more than $8,700 is...wait for it...FIFTEEN PERCENT. The lowest bracket, under $8,700 is TEN PERCENT. Incomes above $388,350 are taxed at THIRTY FIVE PERCENT.

You consistently ignore these facts in favor of an asinine "fairness" argument that's anything but fair, it's just a sham that's intended to try to rationalize and morally justify stealing from the rich and giving to the poor. The facts are clear, the rich are supporting the dependent class almost entirely, with the top 50 percent of taxpayers paying 97 percent of the revenues.

In short, your argument is full of shit because you don't know what you're talking about.

[Seth]

With full employment and high wages I don't see why you'd even need high taxation

That amounts to fuck-you-Jack-I'm-OK Libertarianism

One of the purposes of taxation is the redistribution of wealth.

Yeah, in Socialist kleptocracies it is. Not in any sort of moral and just society.

A government needs a solid tax base for infrastructure and social justice; EG; Defence, Law and Order, roads, decent standards of health, education and welfare. Without a solid, relatively equitable tax base, you end up with--THE US

Yes, the US, the most powerful economic engine on the planet which, when it hiccups because some fuckwitted socialists have screwed things up, causes the entire rest of the planet to fall into economic chaos. I'm good with that.

"Social justice" = Marxist Newspeak for "you've got more than I do, so I'm going to bash your head in and take it from you just because it's not FAIR that you have more than I do, even though I'm just a lazy, worthless proletarian dependent class leech."

[Blind groper]

The idiocy in your argument is that that "tiny proportion of their income" paid by the very wealthy amounts to more than 40 percent of the money the government collects, while the "much greater percentage" (and factually it's really not that much greater at all) paid by "the poorer workers and middle class" amounts to a drop in the bucket,

Try a simple calculation, Seth.
Calculate how much extra money the government would collect if all those wealthy people paid the same percentage as the working and middle class people do.

Then having calculated that, calculate how long it would take the US government to pay off its $US 16 trillion in debt if the extra income was sent that way.

No, I am not talking shit. This is simple, basic common sense, and if running the government were the same as a profit making business, that is what they would already be doing. Except that all those politicians are full of it, and lack the basic wit to do the sensible thing.

[Seth]

The idiocy in your argument is that that "tiny proportion of their income" paid by the very wealthy amounts to more than 40 percent of the money the government collects, while the "much greater percentage" (and factually it's really not that much greater at all) paid by "the poorer workers and middle class" amounts to a drop in the bucket,

Try a simple calculation, Seth.
Calculate how much extra money the government would collect if all those wealthy people paid the same percentage as the working and middle class people do.

What part of THE RICH PAY INCOME TAX AT A RATE OF THIRTY FIVE PERCENT WHILE THE POOR AND MIDDLE CLASS PAY AT A RATE OF FIFTEEN PERCENT OR LESS is unclear to you? Are you really that stupid?

Then having calculated that, calculate how long it would take the US government to pay off its $US 16 trillion in debt if the extra income was sent that way.

Um, if the rich paid taxes at the same rate as the poor, they would be paying it at the rate of zero to ten percent. If they were paying at the rate of the middle class, they'd be paying at 15 to 25 percent. As it stands, they pay THIRTY FIVE PERCENT right now. So, you're just being dense. Terminally so.

No, I am not talking shit.

Yes, you're talking shit because you can't read a simple tax table that proves that the rich pay at more than TWICE the rate that the poor and middle class do.

This is simple, basic common sense, and if running the government were the same as a profit making business, that is what they would already be doing. Except that all those politicians are full of it, and lack the basic wit to do the sensible thing.

Why should the rich pay for more government services than they actually make use of? Why should they be forced to pay off the debt that's largely been incurred by having to pay for entitlement programs for the bottom 50 percent of the population? Please explain how their obligation to turn over their wealth for the use and benefit of the dependent class came into being, and how that was a rational and moral imposition.

You claim the rich could pay off the debt, but you completely and deliberately, and mendaciously ignore the the simple question of why should they be compelled to do so? They didn't incur the debt, the dependent class welfare leeches did. Let them pay for it.

You fucking socialists just think that you're entitled to take anything anyone has and give it to someone else just because you don't think its fair that one person has more than another, but you absolutely CANNOT explain in any sort of rational, logical terms, why this "fairness" presumption ought to be respected, much less enforced.

[Blind groper]

What part of THE RICH PAY INCOME TAX AT A RATE OF THIRTY FIVE PERCENT WHILE THE POOR AND MIDDLE CLASS PAY AT A RATE OF FIFTEEN PERCENT OR LESS is unclear to you?

You obviously have not been reading the earlier parts of this thread.

The rich do not pay 35%. Most pay 5 to 10%. The reason is that they have lots of tax lawyers and accountants to find every loop hole. I had a business of my own for a time, which was moderately lucrative for a period of some years. My accountant described to me several ways I could avoid most of the tax I was due to pay. I am talking of a reduction from up to almost 40%, down to 10%. I turned him down and he (in very polite language) called me a fool. He also told me of the wealthy clients of his who used those loopholes and the very small amounts of tax they paid.

I have spoken to Americans in the accounting professions (I used to work for an American company), and they assure me that the situation is no different there. Wealthy Americans pay beggar all in tax.

[Rum]

What part of THE RICH PAY INCOME TAX AT A RATE OF THIRTY FIVE PERCENT WHILE THE POOR AND MIDDLE CLASS PAY AT A RATE OF FIFTEEN PERCENT OR LESS is unclear to you?

You obviously have not been reading the earlier parts of this thread.

The rich do not pay 35%. Most pay 5 to 10%. The reason is that they have lots of tax lawyers and accountants to find every loop hole. I had a business of my own for a time, which was moderately lucrative for a period of some years. My accountant described to me several ways I could avoid most of the tax I was due to pay. I am talking of a reduction from up to almost 40%, down to 10%. I turned him down and he (in very polite language) called me a fool. He also told me of the wealthy clients of his who used those loopholes and the very small amounts of tax they paid.

I have spoken to Americans in the accounting professions (I used to work for an American company), and they assure me that the situation is no different there. Wealthy Americans pay beggar all in tax.

Yep - there are all sorts of wheezes. I ran a small business for a while too (a disaster as it happens!), but all sorts of tax free dodges were available, from turning my car into a business asset to ultimately doing the same with my house! And I was small potatoes.

[MrJonno]

Fuck that. Society doesn't grant me rights, my rights are inherent in my humanity and society can only infringe on my rights if I allow it to. You may buy into any bullshit your government feeds you about what it "needs" from you, but I don't. My government is supposed to work for me and protect me, not rob me blind to fund fuckwitted dependent class socialists who can't hold a job.

In other words you are a parasitical thief, you want rights without paying for them no different from someone who lives permanently on welfare without ever looking for a job. Libertarianism something for nothing

[JimC]

Why should I care about the crack-head who takes my money in the form of a welfare check to buy more crack and doesn't care to get a job and support herself?

It is not possible to support a crack habit on welfare. Such people turn to crime to support their habit, if they do not have a high paying job or business. There are management methods for this kind of drug problem, but that is for another thread.

Personally, the only thing I got from my government was a small subsidy towards my education. After leaving university with my bright and shiny new degree, I spent 40 years working hard and paying between 25% and 40% tax. I am now retired but still not drawing on the state for my sustenance, since I am living on my own investments.

My political beliefs are neither socialist idiot or right wing looney. I believe in balance, and there is something to be said for the best from both left wing and right wing ideas. I do not believe in dumping society's failures in some kind of garbage bin, where they simply turn to crime and make things far worse. Some kind of caring is needed, and this needs taxes. I seriously resent, though, the very rich avoiding taxes, and paying a tiny proportion of their income, while laughing at society, where the poorer workers and middle class are paying a much greater percentage to the government.

Well said - I am in general agreement with this position.

[Tyrannical]

With full employment and high wages I don't see why you'd even need high taxation

That amounts to fuck-you-Jack-I'm-OK Libertarianism

One of the purposes of taxation is the redistribution of wealth.

A government needs a solid tax base for infrastructure and social justice; EG; Defence, Law and Order, roads, decent standards of health, education and welfare. Without a solid, relatively equitable tax base, you end up with--THE US

With full employment and high wages, why exactly does wealth need to be redistributed?

[Blind groper]

Fair point, Tyrannical.
Perhaps you might tell me where this wonderful country of full employment and high wages is. Worth emigrating!

[Seth]

What part of THE RICH PAY INCOME TAX AT A RATE OF THIRTY FIVE PERCENT WHILE THE POOR AND MIDDLE CLASS PAY AT A RATE OF FIFTEEN PERCENT OR LESS is unclear to you?

You obviously have not been reading the earlier parts of this thread.

The rich do not pay 35%. Most pay 5 to 10%.

Your proof of this allegation please...

The reason is that they have lots of tax lawyers and accountants to find every loop hole.

Ah, you mean that they do their homework, learn what the law allows, and take advantage of programs created by Congress by which people (and that's anyone at all) can reduce their tax liability if they meet the applicable criteria. So what? I do that. Everything I do as a hobby I make into a business and I deduct everything I buy for that activity as personal equipment purchased for work. I pursue the hobby professionally to the extent that I have a taxable income from it, and I declare that income and pay a minor amount of tax, just enough to satisfy the Autobots at the IRS. I've been doing it for 40 years now and I've been audited only once, and never had an agent disallow any of my deductions.

It's all perfectly legal, and it's available to EVERYONE, not just "the rich."

But if you're not smart enough to configure your economic activities to minimize your tax liability, that's your problem. Actions = consequences.

I had a business of my own for a time, which was moderately lucrative for a period of some years. My accountant described to me several ways I could avoid most of the tax I was due to pay. I am talking of a reduction from up to almost 40%, down to 10%. I turned him down and he (in very polite language) called me a fool. He also told me of the wealthy clients of his who used those loopholes and the very small amounts of tax they paid.

Just because your average proletarian dependent class drone isn't smart enough to figure out how to take advantage of the exact same "loopholes" that are available to the "rich" doesn't mean that the rich are doing something wrong by taking full advantage of the law. It just means that the proletarian dependents deserve to suffer the consequences of their ignorance.

I have spoken to Americans in the accounting professions (I used to work for an American company), and they assure me that the situation is no different there. Wealthy Americans pay beggar all in tax.

They pay enough so that the top 10 percent of "wealthy Americans" pay 40 percent of the taxes, and the top 50 percent pay 97 percent of the taxes while the bottom 50 percent pay less than 3 percent.

That fucks your silly argument right up the ass.

[Blind groper]

Mitt Romney admitted that his tax level was 15%.
Warren Buffett said he paid less tax than his secretary. Buffett is something of an exception, in having a strong altruism (he donates billions to charities), and he stated clearly (including in a communication to Obama) that he, Buffett, should be paying more tax.

One of the things about the very rich is that a large percentage of their earnings are capital gain, which is not taxed in most western nations. Another tactic is to make full use of offshore tax havens. Neither of these methods are available to the poor or middle class.

A common tactic (which is illegal, but still rather frequently done), is to use an offshore bank which cooperates with the investor, by hiding details. If the business is importing, they get their suppliers to invoice them twice - once at a high rate. They pay the supplier at the true, lower rate, and the difference goes into the offshore bank, while the tax office gets shown the higher rate invoice. Thus they declare a false lower profit. The reverse happens with an exporter.

There are lots of tactics like this. Some legal, and some illegal. End result is low taxes paid by those wealthy enough to have tax lawyers and accountants at their beck and call.

In the USA, and many other western nations, there is a trend towards a widening of the gap between rich and poor. A big reason for this is tax avoidance and tax evasion by the rich. A 'cure' for this disparity is to make taxation fairer once more, and ensure the wealthy pay a solid whack of the government's needs.

As I said before, this will not affect the standard of living of the very rich. Anyone with $500,000 per year or more will never need more money to satisfy their wants and needs.

[padraic]

Yes, the US, the most powerful economic engine on the planet which, when it hiccups because some fuckwitted socialists have screwed things up,

Another view, from outside,is that the US is arguably the most socially and politically conservative country in the developed world,and in fact does not have an effective political left.

Non socialist things which might have contributed to America's current parlous state:

Being the world's the largest debtor (crippling interest)

Being constantly involved in armed conflict since WW2 (approx 50 of them) the Iraq and Afghanistan wars have so far cost the US over ONE TRILLION DOLLARS.

Then there was the criminal irresponsibility of the sub prime catastrophe,and multi-billion bail-out of the banks and later of GM.

Watching about the US elections last night, I discovered that here are 45 MILLION people in the US living in poverty.A national shame which should be a major political issue is ignored by all political parties.

A in a civilised society,a government looks after people who cannot look after themselves; the old,the sick,children and the disabled and veterans. That has nothing to do with socialism and everything to do with common humanity. The lynchpins of an equitable society are effective government systems of health,education and welfare.

In my opinion,your characterisation and of socialism is facile and ignorant. Blaming your country's woes on anonymous socialists is as a rational as blaming the Free Masons, The Jews or The Illuminati.

Please don't think I am trying to change your mind,or start an argument. I am not. Our perceptions are simply different. By means continue to hold your views. I will continue being right.