Bang, Bang, Yer Dead!

[Seth]

Where exactly do you think all those machine guns and illegal handguns seized in the UK come from?

Actually, nowhere. Since that is a fantasy. Very few illegal machine guns and hand guns end up in the UK. Compared to the USA, they are rare as hens teeth.

And yet:

HIGH-powered machine guns are among 2,645 weapons taken off the streets of London in just four years.
The Mac-10 and Agram [sic] sub-machine guns were part of the arsenal of weapons seized by the Metropolitan Police.
Britain’s biggest police force, responsible for security at the Olympics, has revealed the shocking figures for the first time. Source

Strange how all that gun control can't keep machine guns out of London, isn't it?

And Seth

The fact that you choose to quote the Sensible Sentencing Trust in relation to New Zealand shows how little you know. Those guys are crackpots that no one takes seriously.

Can you rebut the claim or merely engage in ad hom evasion?

[Pensioner]

Where exactly do you think all those machine guns and illegal handguns seized in the UK come from?

Actually, nowhere. Since that is a fantasy. Very few illegal machine guns and hand guns end up in the UK. Compared to the USA, they are rare as hens teeth.

And yet:

HIGH-powered machine guns are among 2,645 weapons taken off the streets of London in just four years.
The Mac-10 and Agram [sic] sub-machine guns were part of the arsenal of weapons seized by the Metropolitan Police.
Britain’s biggest police force, responsible for security at the Olympics, has revealed the shocking figures for the first time. Source

Strange how all that gun control can't keep machine guns out of London, isn't it?

And Seth

The fact that you choose to quote the Sensible Sentencing Trust in relation to New Zealand shows how little you know. Those guys are crackpots that no one takes seriously.

Can you rebut the claim or merely engage in ad hom evasion?

Machine Guns in London Seth? You are supposed to be the weapon expert on this forum and yet you say there has been illegal Machine Guns imported in to London, bullshit.

A 9mm submachine is not the same as a 30 or a 50 browning

[Seth]

Where exactly do you think all those machine guns and illegal handguns seized in the UK come from?

Actually, nowhere. Since that is a fantasy. Very few illegal machine guns and hand guns end up in the UK. Compared to the USA, they are rare as hens teeth.

And yet:

HIGH-powered machine guns are among 2,645 weapons taken off the streets of London in just four years.
The Mac-10 and Agram [sic] sub-machine guns were part of the arsenal of weapons seized by the Metropolitan Police.
Britain’s biggest police force, responsible for security at the Olympics, has revealed the shocking figures for the first time. Source

Strange how all that gun control can't keep machine guns out of London, isn't it?

And Seth

The fact that you choose to quote the Sensible Sentencing Trust in relation to New Zealand shows how little you know. Those guys are crackpots that no one takes seriously.

Can you rebut the claim or merely engage in ad hom evasion?

Machine Guns in London Seth? You are supposed to be the weapon expert on this forum and yet you say there has been illegal Machine Guns imported in to London, bullshit.

Did you read the article I cited? No, evidently not.

Here's some more proof. From 2009:

A schoolgirl of 13 has been arrested by armed police after an assault rifle was found hidden in her bedroom.
The M16 automatic machine gun, which is believed to have been placed under a wardrobe by her gangster brother, was discovered wrapped in several pieces of clothing.
Fifteen officers armed with sub-machine guns yesterday stormed a block of flats in Croydon, South London, after a tip-off about the weapon.Source

From 2011:

A deadly sub-machine gun capable of firing hundreds of rounds a minute has been discovered hidden in Hackney. Source

From 2010:

A London Police Service media release:

On Thursday December 30th, 2010, members of the London Police Guns and Drugs Section, the Community Orientated Response Unit, and the London RCMP, sought and obtained a search warrant for a residence on Columbia Avenue. With the assistance of the Guns and Drugs Police Services Dog, officers located an M49 automatic machine gun, a “banana” ammunition magazine (35 round capacity), a “drum” ammunition magazine (71 round capacity), and a small quantity of cocaine. Source

I could go on. And those are just the ones they actually seized, which means there are many, many more that they have not.

A 9mm submachine is not the same as a 30 or a 50 browning

You're mincing words. Call them "automatic weapons" if you like, the fact remains that they do exist in London. This despite the assertion that gun control laws prevent it. Something is amiss in that assertion it appears.

By the way, there's never been a crime committed in the US with a .30 or .50 caliber Browning machine gun. This despite the fact that there are thousands of them lawfully in civilian hands under the NFA.

[Wumbologist]

A 9mm submachine is not the same as a 30 or a 50 browning

Browning machine guns are exceedingly rare in criminal hands in the US and they're legal to own here. Not sure what your point is, as a 9mm submachine gun isn't legal in the UK.

[Wumbologist]

By the way, there's never been a crime committed in the US with a .30 or .50 caliber Browning machine gun. This despite the fact that there are thousands of them lawfully in civilian hands under the NFA.

But not in my hands.

[Seth]

By the way, there's never been a crime committed in the US with a .30 or .50 caliber Browning machine gun. This despite the fact that there are thousands of them lawfully in civilian hands under the NFA.

But not in my hands.

All it takes is money. Lots and lots of money. And then more money to feed it.

[Svartalf]

A 9mm submachine is not the same as a 30 or a 50 browning

Browning machine guns are exceedingly rare in criminal hands in the US and they're legal to own here. Not sure what your point is, as a 9mm submachine gun isn't legal in the UK.

Not to mention that I really don't see gangers mugging people and robbing banks while toting a B2HBAR.

[Blind groper]

Let me restate it.

The problem is hand guns. Not machine guns. 8,000 murders each year with hand guns.

The thing about a machine gun is that you cannot carry it anywhere without being rather obvious. A nasty gang member on the way to a brawl cannot carry a machine gun without having special police squads pouncing. He can, however, carry a concealed hand gun.

I regard those who buy and collect machine guns and the equivalent as simply being insane. Not necessarily dangerous, since hand guns are the preferred weapon of murder in the USA. Just insane.

[JimC]

Wumbologist wrote:

For the average Joe living in the US, not involved in a gang, not a career criminal, the real-world odds of becoming a homicide victim are probably not far from Western European norms. The US's homicide rate is inflated by the fact that we have a whole lot of criminals killing each other in inner cities, who are likely to continue killing each other with whatever weapons are available to them, unless the root causes of their criminality to begin with (hint: it's not guns) are resolved.

There may well be some truth in that, but I regret the death and violence within gang membership too, as well as the innocent bystanders killed with wild firing. It is perhaps a little cold-hearted to simply remove the deaths of countless young black men from the statistics, with the implication (more from Lak Lak earlier than you) that they deserve their fate...

In countries with criminal youth gangs, but many fewer weapons, gang violence kills many fewer - the tools for rapid multiple homicide are simply missing...

[Wumbologist]

There may well be some truth in that, but I regret the death and violence within gang membership too, as well as the innocent bystanders killed with wild firing. It is perhaps a little cold-hearted to simply remove the deaths of countless young black men from the statistics, with the implication (more from Lak Lak earlier than you) that they deserve their fate...

In countries with criminal youth gangs, but many fewer weapons, gang violence kills many fewer - the tools for rapid multiple homicide are simply missing...

My point isn't whether or not they deserve their fate. That's a value judgement I can't rightly place on an entire group of people, most of whom I haven't met. My point is what I've been saying all along, that law-abiding gun owners aren't the problem and that there are deeper underlying problems causing the homicide rate, and that no ban on any weapon will ever fix those underlying problems. I sincerely doubt they would even slow down the killing. The United States is a unique beast, owing to decades of policy failure that require real change to fix, not the disarmament of millions who have done nothing wrong while criminals continue business as usual.

[laklak]

No one "deserves" to die in a gun battle, but if you choose to be a gangbanger then you can't complain when you get murdered. It's part and parcel of the lifestyle. Don't want to die in a gang related shooting? Don't join a gang. I'm not going to waste my compassion on these idiots. My point is the average American is as safe as the average European and the "8000 handgun deaths" is a red herring. By the statistics presented earlier somewhere between 75 and 90 percent of homicides are gang related, therefore we can reduce the 8000 by at least 75%. Now the statistics don't look quite as bad, do they? Now, that 2000 also includes accidental deaths and suicides, which further reduces the chances of any "ordinary" person dying in a murder.

[Blind groper]

you can't complain when you get murdered.

Funny thing.
I never known of a person who gets murdered and then complains. For some strange reason, it does not happen.

[laklak]

Gotta admit, you've got a point there.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I knew a guy who complained about being dead. He left a sealed envelope "to be opened on the event of my death". When he finally did die, of cancer, the letter inside ranted on for several pages and then revealed the name of his killer, his ex-wife. She had died two years before him, so I guess it was the perfect crime.

[laklak]

Postmortem bitch-fest, I like it. I'll just do it in my will, might have a bit more sting that way.