Scottish Catholics walk away from talks r.e. gay marriage

[John_fi_Skye]

Today's news (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/church-acts-ov ... 02317.html):

A letter criticising the Scottish Government for supporting plans to legalise gay marriage will be read out in all of the country's Catholic parishes.

The Roman Catholic Church has declared August 26 as National Marriage Sunday and is calling on politicians to "sustain rather than subvert marriage".

The letter, which will be read in all of Scotland's 500 Catholic parishes, will urge followers to continue to act against efforts to "redefine" marriage.

The Scottish Government has said it is right to introduce same-sex marriages, but has stressed no clergy would be forced to carry them out.

Cardinal Keith O'Brien, the leader of the Church in Scotland, last week broke off discussions on the issue with First Minister Alex Salmond.

In a strongly worded message, the letter will highlight the church's "deep disappointment that the Scottish Government has decided to redefine marriage and legislate for same sex marriage."

It will also announce the launch of a National Commission for Marriage and the Family to co-ordinate a campaign against gay marriage.

Cardinal O'Brien, who has described gay marriage as a "grotesque subversion of a universally accepted human right", said: "The Church's teaching on marriage is unequivocal, it is uniquely, the union of a man and a woman and it is wrong that governments, politicians or parliaments should seek to alter or destroy that reality."

He added: "With this letter we will announce the creation of a National Commission for Marriage and the Family, a body which will be charged with promoting the true nature of marriage, it will develop an online presence and produce materials and organise events which will help Catholic families to support and sustain marriage."

The Scottish government has pledged to bring forward a Bill on the issue later this year, and has indicated the earliest ceremonies could take place by the start of 2015.


So, the cafflick hierarchy are doing what they can to mobilise opinion. We'll now see whether it's right to say, as some have, that Scots in general will accept the change without much fuss, or whether there's a widespread and deep-seated respect for pronouncements by the churches. Could be make or break for them.

[Audley Strange]

Could be make or break for a lot of things.

Do we really want an independent Scotland that's Government is dictated to by an anachronism of celibate witch doctors who believe in talking snakes and a magic book?

I still say we don't, I hope we don't, I'd like to think we are not that reactionary or backwards and are adult enough to take responsibility for our nation's future as a small independent state. I'm the first to criticise our pig ignorant sectarianism and pride in indolence and ignorance but I will be genuinely surprised and saddened if we don't let this go through because to block such would be prime evidence we are not adult enough to govern ourselves. At all.

[John_fi_Skye]

Could be make or break for a lot of things.

Do we really want an independent Scotland that's Government is dictated to by an anachronism of celibate witch doctors who believe in talking snakes and a magic book?

I still say we don't, I hope we don't, I'd like to think we are not that reactionary or backwards and are adult enough to take responsibility for our nation's future as a small independent state. I'm the first to criticise our pig ignorant sectarianism and pride in indolence and ignorance but I will be genuinely surprised and saddened if we don't let this go through because to block such would be prime evidence we are not adult enough to govern ourselves. At all.

That would be a bit like the Westminster government, which is dictated to by several different anachronisms of celibate (or not) witch doctors who believe in talking snakes and a magic book?

[John_fi_Skye]

It is of course time religion were completely gone from our society. My point is that at present it isn't, and I'm not sure to what extent it remains. We'll see.

[JimC]

Marriage is a civil business, with any religious guff being a trivial add-on.

It's time they realised that can no longer dictate moral positions deriving from narrow belief systems to society at large.

The enlightenment happened, kiddy fiddlers...

And you lost...

[Audley Strange]

Could be make or break for a lot of things.

Do we really want an independent Scotland that's Government is dictated to by an anachronism of celibate witch doctors who believe in talking snakes and a magic book?

I still say we don't, I hope we don't, I'd like to think we are not that reactionary or backwards and are adult enough to take responsibility for our nation's future as a small independent state. I'm the first to criticise our pig ignorant sectarianism and pride in indolence and ignorance but I will be genuinely surprised and saddened if we don't let this go through because to block such would be prime evidence we are not adult enough to govern ourselves. At all.

That would be a bit like the Westminster government, which is dictated to by several different anachronisms of celibate (or not) witch doctors who believe in talking snakes and a magic book?

Oh yes, but there is no point in claiming self determination if one is not ready to self-determinate.

[mistermack]

I don't share any respect for Salmond on this issue.
He should have told the choir boy bummers to fuck off, not hold any kind of talks with them. Tell them to get on with their psuedo cannibal rituals involving bread and wine, and stop bothering the government.

All this " I still have good personal relationship with the boy botherers " is pathetic.

Even the Irish government has more balls than Salmond.

[ronmcd]

Could be make or break for a lot of things.

Do we really want an independent Scotland that's Government is dictated to by an anachronism of celibate witch doctors who believe in talking snakes and a magic book?

I still say we don't, I hope we don't, I'd like to think we are not that reactionary or backwards and are adult enough to take responsibility for our nation's future as a small independent state. I'm the first to criticise our pig ignorant sectarianism and pride in indolence and ignorance but I will be genuinely surprised and saddened if we don't let this go through because to block such would be prime evidence we are not adult enough to govern ourselves. At all.

I agree with you, but I can't see any reason at all why equal marriage will be affected by this noisy minority. Personally, I think they lose support with every bigotted pronouncement on the issue, and they are attacking SNP govt specifically in an attempt to scare them into changing course, but every party in Holyrood agrees with equal marriage. The only possible reason for pulling back would be if it were going to affect them in 2014, or in elections. I don't see why it would, there is no political party campaigning against it, and it will be yesterdays news by the time of the next elections.

[ronmcd]

I don't share any respect for Salmond on this issue.
He should have told the choir boy bummers to fuck off, not hold any kind of talks with them. Tell them to get on with their psuedo cannibal rituals involving bread and wine, and stop bothering the government.

All this " I still have good personal relationship with the boy botherers " is pathetic.

Even the Irish government has more balls than Salmond.

Let see ... a politician who holds the position of First Minister, so technically represents the people of Scotland rather than his party. He wants to keep the support of the Catholics across Scotland who don't have a problem with equal marriage, which is probably the majority of Catholics.

So what should Salmond do? Tell the head of the Catholic church in Scotland to "fuck off"? Or calmly say we are going ahead, and it won' affect you Catholics, and remain respectful? Hmm.

[mistermack]

I don't share any respect for Salmond on this issue.
He should have told the choir boy bummers to fuck off, not hold any kind of talks with them. Tell them to get on with their psuedo cannibal rituals involving bread and wine, and stop bothering the government.

All this " I still have good personal relationship with the boy botherers " is pathetic.

Even the Irish government has more balls than Salmond.

Let see ... a politician who holds the position of First Minister, so technically represents the people of Scotland rather than his party. He wants to keep the support of the Catholics across Scotland who don't have a problem with equal marriage, which is probably the majority of Catholics.

So what should Salmond do? Tell the head of the Catholic church in Scotland to "fuck off"? Or calmly say we are going ahead, and it won' affect you Catholics, and remain respectful? Hmm.

He would, if he had any balls.

They did in Ireland, a Catholic country.
The pm did a hachet job on the vatican in parliament, and the vatican has removed it's embassy from Dublin.

Salmond is just pathetic, toadying up to the church.
He would have got a lot more respect if he'd told them to keep their noses out of politics.

[ronmcd]

He would, if he had any balls.

They did in Ireland, a Catholic country.
The pm did a hachet job on the vatican in parliament, and the vatican has removed it's embassy from Dublin.

Salmond is just pathetic, toadying up to the church.
He would have got a lot more respect if he'd told them to keep their noses out of politics.

I know precisely what would happen if he did. You are ignoring the political environment in Scotland at the moment, in fact across the UK with respect to the constitutional future of Scotland.

If Salmond in ANY way insulted Catholics, or was seen to be anything other than courteous to Cardinal O'Brien, it would be "Salmond accused ..." press releases and media stories for weeks and months. You vastly underestimate the ability of Scottish Labour in particular to hypocritically smear Alex Salmond on a personal level at every opportunity. The fact that the other parties agree with him and the SNP on equal marriage would not stop them making 2014 political capital from it. Any chance to attack Salmond personally will be jumped on, I guarantee it.

So for a variety of reasons, he will not openly insult or criticise them, but will push on with a policy that the majority of Scots appear to agree with.

[John_fi_Skye]

He would, if he had any balls.

They did in Ireland, a Catholic country.
The pm did a hachet job on the vatican in parliament, and the vatican has removed it's embassy from Dublin.

Salmond is just pathetic, toadying up to the church.
He would have got a lot more respect if he'd told them to keep their noses out of politics.

I know precisely what would happen if he did. You are ignoring the political environment in Scotland at the moment, in fact across the UK with respect to the constitutional future of Scotland.

If Salmond in ANY way insulted Catholics, or was seen to be anything other than courteous to Cardinal O'Brien, it would be "Salmond accused ..." press releases and media stories for weeks and months. You vastly underestimate the ability of Scottish Labour in particular to hypocritically smear Alex Salmond on a personal level at every opportunity. The fact that the other parties agree with him and the SNP on equal marriage would not stop them making 2014 political capital from it. Any chance to attack Salmond personally will be jumped on, I guarantee it.

So for a variety of reasons, he will not openly insult or criticise them, but will push on with a policy that the majority of Scots appear to agree with.

Yep. Full agreement from this corner of Skye.

[mistermack]

Well, I think he's miscalculated. The protestants won't be that impressed with his "good personal relations" with the catholic heirarchy. That little detail will be enough to sway more votes away from him, than towards him.

He has this instinct to creep and grovel round people, it's why so many people find him slimey. And he's just showing it off to the fore on this.

You might think he's played it well, but I don't think he has. Very few catholic voters would have been bothered if he's put the cardinal down where he belongs. Most would admire him for it. But plenty of staunch protestants and many neutrals won't be impressed with this gushing declaration of friendliness.

[ronmcd]

Well, I think he's miscalculated. The protestants won't be that impressed with his "good personal relations" with the catholic heirarchy. That little detail will be enough to sway more votes away from him, than towards him.

He has this instinct to creep and grovel round people, it's why so many people find him slimey. And he's just showing it off to the fore on this.

You might think he's played it well, but I don't think he has. Very few catholic voters would have been bothered if he's put the cardinal down where he belongs. Most would admire him for it. But plenty of staunch protestants and many neutrals won't be impressed with this gushing declaration of friendliness.

It's not about an election though. All the parties hold the SAME view. So theres no electoral advantage, or disadvantage. The protestants? They don't care/hate equal marriage in the same proportions as the catholics. It's irrelevant to Salmond or the SNPs electoral chances in the future.

There is however the potential (guarantee?) for political smear attacks from the other parties, if he lets loose and insults a religion. Why on earth would he do that. And frankly, the other party leaders will never tell O'Brien to "fuck off" either, they will all remain calm in the face of bigotry. Westminister leaders, same thing.

Some politicians will of course go much further than being courteous to some bigots, in exchange for votes ...

[mistermack]

How on earth does putting a cardinal in his place equate to "insulting a religion" ?

If someone put Dawkins in his place, if he was trying to influence policy, I would hardly take it as "insulting atheism".

He should just have told them to stick to religion, and leave politics to the ELECTED politicians.
He just can't resist the temptation to creep around everybyody.