Bang, Bang, Yer Dead!

[Sælir]

Where on earth did you get this information?

There is a list on Wiki of total crimes committed each year by country. I simply divided total crimes by population to get crime rates per capita for the 17 advanced western nations mentioned on that list. Both Iceland and the USA were listed.

I can't seem to find it
But for those numbers I found for USA did not include traffic violations like all the Icelandic numbers do and I am pretty sure if you added all the speeding, running over a red light, not wearing a seatbelt etc. to the US numbers it would be much higher than depicted.
Hell, it's 15.000 violations per 100.000 inhabitants in Iceland per year!

You can't compare apples and oranges

[Jason]

Well, that's convenient. Let's just ignore data that runs counter to your preferred hypothesis.

I suggested that old data is less reliable than recent. I think that is reasonable.

On Iceland versus USA.
Iceland has five times the overall crime rate, compared to the USA. That alone shoots down most of your arguments as to why they have such a low murder rate. Obviously, they have sufficient criminals to get a high murder rate. but they do not have the guns.

You do realise, if we accept your argument as true, that it cuts both ways: That means societies with far less guns are no safer.

[Sælir]

Well, that's convenient. Let's just ignore data that runs counter to your preferred hypothesis.

I suggested that old data is less reliable than recent. I think that is reasonable.

On Iceland versus USA.
Iceland has five times the overall crime rate, compared to the USA. That alone shoots down most of your arguments as to why they have such a low murder rate. Obviously, they have sufficient criminals to get a high murder rate. but they do not have the guns.

You do realise, if we accept your argument as true, that it cuts both ways: That means societies with far less guns are no safer.

Crime rates doesn't really say everything. It's a crime falsifying documents but it's not going to get you killed, is it?

Aside from the fact that his comparison between the countries is wrong.

[Blind groper]

To Azathoth

Interesting. I had not realised that.
An adjustment to my calculations to allow for that cuts the Iceland crime rate to 0.05, compared to 0.04 for the USA. So only slightly higher.

My point is still valid, though. A tiny homicide rate (0.3 per 100,000 per year compared to 4.2 for the USA) while having an overall crime rate similar to the USA, which implies a similar number of criminals.

I could use any one of the total of 17 advanced western nations I looked at to make a similar point. Basically, Americans cannot claim they have more criminals, to explain why they have more murders.

[Blind groper]

You do realise, if we accept your argument as true, that it cuts both ways: That means societies with far less guns are no safer.

Pord

I am sorry, but that "logic" does not wash. The USA has a very high homicide rate. The 4.2 murders per 100,000 people per year is pretty damn clear cut. The high homicide rate seems clearly linked with the high rate of firearm ownership, and with hand guns in particular.

We have looked at a number of possible reason why the USA would have more murders, and the only reasons that seem to hold water are that there is :
1. High ownership of hand guns
2. A very unhealthy attitude to guns (and possibly violence overall).

The unhealthy attitude towards guns is actually quite abundantly demonstrated in this discussion with people like Seth (and others) showing a great emotional attachment to weapons designed to kill humans (not for hunting). Even the title of this thread reflects that love of violence.

[Warren Dew]

I am sorry, but that "logic" does not wash. The USA has a very high homicide rate. The 4.2 murders per 100,000 people per year is pretty damn clear cut. The high homicide rate seems clearly linked with the high rate of firearm ownership, and with hand guns in particular.

And yet, New Zealand, with few firearms, has nearly double the homicide rate of New Hampshire, which has no restrictions on hand gun ownership and open carry. I can just as easily read those statistics to say that gun ownership reduces homicides.

[Robert_S]

The US is one country, but many cultures.

Hell, it's a mistake to say there's even one gun culture. The inner city gangsters and petty criminals have a totally different gun culture than the rednecks and those rednecks have a different gun culture than the middle class gun owners.

[Wumbologist]

The unhealthy attitude towards guns is actually quite abundantly demonstrated in this discussion with people like Seth (and others) showing a great emotional attachment to weapons designed to kill humans (not for hunting). Even the title of this thread reflects that love of violence.

Oh, give it a goddamn rest with this shit already. We've gone over the statistics and the law-abiding gun owners, the ones you are talking about with the "great emotional attachment" to their firearms, are not the people doing the killing. I would wager that the vast majority of murderers who use a firearm treat it as a disposable tool.

As far as "great emotional attachment" goes, sure, I love my guns. Big deal. I have shoes that one could argue I have a similar "emotional attachment" to. I typically develop a similar attachment to the vehicles I drive. Nobody gives a shit if I really like my shoes, or if my truck is special to me, because they haven't entered the discussion with the idea that my shoes and my truck are inherently evil.

And really?! The thread title reflects a "love of violence" that is somehow reinforcing your point? If you keep grasping, I'm sure you'll get a straw sooner or later.

[Seth]

Wear your chains lightly, slave-boy.

No chains in Canada, chum. You wear ones of your own making, and will never be free. Watch your back, the tyrant's minions are keeping an eye on you...

Really? Why don't you go to the police station and make a disparaging remark about a cripple or an Indian and let us know what happens?

Or, why don't you try to possess a gun without your government's permission to do so.

Your chains are invisible, but very strong. They've wiped your mind of the concept of true freedom. You live, work and play only on the sufferance of your masters, and you own nothing that does not belong to the Crown.

[Blind groper]

And yet, New Zealand, with few firearms, has nearly double the homicide rate of New Hampshire, which has no restrictions on hand gun ownership and open carry. I can just as easily read those statistics to say that gun ownership reduces homicides.

Not true.

The latest international list of homicide rates puts NZ at 0.9 per 100,000 per year, compared to New Hampshire at 1.0 per 100,000 per year.

But I have never said gun ownership is the only cause of a high murder rate, nor that law abiding citizens are a major cause. Other factors keep New Hampshire's homicide rate relatively low. I would be willing to bet, though, that New Hampshire's relatively few murders are mostly carried out with firearms, compared to less than 10% here in NZ.

To Wumbologist, who clearly does not read my posts well enough.

The real problem, as I have said over and over again, is the ready access to hand guns, as well as the gun culture, which means that criminals can also get hold of them freely. The ready access means that any criminal who wants a gun, will get one. The gun culture means that those criminals will want one.

[JimC]

To the point raised by Sea Bass earlier...

I would agree with you that a sensible de-criminalisation of drugs, and a subsequent reduction in drug-gang violence would reduce homicide rates, as well as many other crimes. And not only in the US...

Also, I have a slightly different position to BG - while I agree with him that your gun laws are a major factor in your current homicide rate, and am glad to live somewhere with a very different gun culture, I see no realistic possibility of you guys altering your gun ownership laws, or the widespread availability of hand guns and semi-automatic rifles, and so suggesting any changes seems quite pointless... Anyway, any changes are totally your business, but recognising the effects of your current status quo rather than pretending otherwise would be a good thing in itself...

[Blind groper]

Actually, Jim, I agree that there is little chance that the USA government will make any appreciable change to gun laws. But it would be nice to see the people on this thread, who write in a so-called rational forum, actually face up to the reality of the harm done by too lax gun laws.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

[Seth]

Actually, Jim, I agree that there is little chance that the USA government will make any appreciable change to gun laws. But it would be nice to see the people on this thread, who write in a so-called rational forum, actually face up to the reality of the harm done by too lax gun laws.

We're too busy focusing on the reality of the harm done by too strict gun laws, which is far, far worse.

Just ask the Jews.

Or the residents of the Road of Bones.

Or the victims of violent crime in Chicago.

Or those who suffer under tyranny anywhere on the planet.

[Woodbutcher]

Wear your chains lightly, slave-boy.

No chains in Canada, chum. You wear ones of your own making, and will never be free. Watch your back, the tyrant's minions are keeping an eye on you...

Really? Why don't you go to the police station and make a disparaging remark about a cripple or an Indian and let us know what happens?

Or, why don't you try to possess a gun without your government's permission to do so.

Your chains are invisible, but very strong. They've wiped your mind of the concept of true freedom. You live, work and play only on the sufferance of your masters, and you own nothing that does not belong to the Crown.

Seth, what is true freedom to you? I could go 100 miles north of here and never pay taxes or abide by social conventions. I have no desire to own a handgun, because I think they are unnecessary where I live, we do not have any ghettos here. There is crime, but the 3 or 4 murders that we get seem to be tribally motivated or drug-related. I fear nothing anywhere I go. I think that people who get into trouble mostly ask for it by acting like cunts. I own guns- for hunting. If I lived somewhere where I needed a personal sidearm to feel safe I'd move. A society that harbors predators to such extent has failed its mandate. That's where I would advocate Libertarian policy, at least until the crime was contained.