The Atheism Plus "movement" -- good, bad, ugly?

[Coito ergo sum]

Huh...

....this Atheism Plus movement has, perhaps, a bit more history in it than once thought. It may have a kernel of anti-Dawkinsian angst to it...

Dawkins is an embarrassment to New Atheism -- July, 2012 -- http://dangerousidea.blogspot.com/2012/ ... heism.html

Labeled an embarrassment to atheism after clash with Giles.... http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/02 ... 75468.html

Dawkins stabs at Skepchicks over "Hug Me..." campaign ... http://freethoughtblogs.com/lousycanuck ... -campaign/

They're already pissed at him for the Muslima, elevatorgate, kerfuffle. He definitely does not write for Freethoughtblogs (query: was he ever invited? Did he turn them down?). He did not participate in Skepchick.org's Speaking Out Against Hate Directed At Women....

Hmmm.....

.... If I were a bettin' man... I'm going to say that this Atheism Plus has at its heart a large dose of "get rid of Dawkins" (and by extension, the misogynistic fans of Dawkins)...and I would be willing to bet that Harris too is not someone they want around. Hitchens is dead. Daniel Dennett is pretty much inactive lately.

so -- how do we become the new leaders of the atheist movement --- destroy the remaining "New Atheists" (Harris and Dawkins), so that they are discredited and no longer "leaders" of the atheist skeptic movement. Fill in the void.

Recall, recently, that Sam Harris was targeted by Freethoughtbloggers and accused of heinous things, as if he was in favor of torturing people or starting nuclear wars. There is a thread on Ratz about that, too. Dawkins came in to rightly defend Harris, who does not advocate torture or nuclear war, but the Freethoughtbloggers were apopleptic.

The battle lines are drawn. With the Hitch gone, a potent polemicist (and reputed sexist) is out, and so their most formidable voice is gone. With Dennett with heart problems, he is a nonissue. Get Harris and Dawkins off to the side, and PZ Myers is left as one of the few, if any, remaining prominent figures in academia to fill in the void. And Myers has the machinery set up online to make a big splash, and he has his secret police and Skepchickistas to go after any pesky dissent.

Hmmmm.....

[Jason]

I don't think they're especially set against Dawkins or New Atheism. I do think they've seen the potential for commercial and personal success and seek to supplant them as the new 'popular' wave of atheism.

They're on the fast-track to the it-list.

[Coito ergo sum]

Well fuckn' hell - I thought this was all masturbatory navel gazing. The New Statesman eh?

Going to have to go back and argue some more I think..

That story has to have been planted. Nelson Jones has written many stories for the New Statesman, but I can't imagine he saw some blog posts about a bunch of people coming up with a new idea for an Atheism Plus movement and immediately thought it was something that was viable or serious. It started, like last Thursday.

All of a sudden -- this is the "high energy" answer to the "New Atheism?"

Did the New Atheism need an answer? This is the first I'm hearing about it. Something smells funny about this. I have a fairly good sense for this stuff, and I would bet a month's pay that someone from FtB enlisted this guy to write an article. Someone called in a favor.

[Coito ergo sum]

I don't think they're especially set against Dawkins or New Atheism. I do think they've seen the potential for commercial and personal success and seek to supplant them as the new 'popular' wave of atheism.

They're on the fast-track to the it-list.

Yes, but Dawkins and Harris, and Dennett -- the "New Atheists" of the last several years, are in the way, because in popular culture, it is Dawkins, Dennett, Harris and Hitchens that have been the faces of atheism. They have been the New Atheists, and the vanguard of the atheist movement.

Myers and Skepchicks and FtB want to be the vanguard of the atheist movement.

So, is it surprising that they recently specifically went after Harris? And, now they publish this article about being the "answer" to the New Atheists?

They are clearly trying to set up the dynamic that the New Atheists are the old guard, crotchety "male privilege dominated" face of atheism, and atheism Plus is the real "new" atheism.... it seems quite plain to me.

Anyone with access to those "confidential" emails on the FtB mailing list might do us a solid and post some smoking gun material on this. I bet this is part of their plan.

[rachelbean]

So they're the answer to something I didn't give a shit about in the first place? That explains a lot.

[Coito ergo sum]

So they're the answer to something I didn't give a shit about in the first place? That explains a lot.

They're positioning themselves as the "answer" to the so-called "New Atheist" leaders, so that once they marginalize those guys, there is void left for them to fill. Then they can adopt the position as the "leaders" of the movement. They may well succeed, as they are positioned very well to do so. That would move PZ Myers from "second tier" provincial professor from a mediocre midwest university, who doesn't hold a candle academically or professionally to Dawkins, Dennett, Harris or Hitchens, to the top of the charts.

This is not a bid for what you care about or don't care about. This is a play for power, and money. This wold make PZ and others at the top of the FtB and Skepchick movement the "leaders" of the atheist demographic, which would mean that instead of Dawkins being called for interviews, it would be PZ. It would also mean much easier and extensive publicity for his next book.

[Jason]

[Coito ergo sum]

This is dangerous folks -- these FtB-ers have gone off the rails....

Indeed, as the Surly Amy story shows, there are clearly many of us who disregard the happiness of others just to hurt them, mocking or insulting (or even threatening) them merely to please one’s own vanity or self-righteousness, in complete disregard of the pointless misery it causes another human being. That is fucking evil. And if you are complicit in that, or don’t even see what’s wrong with it, or worse, plan to engage in Christian-style apologetics for it, defending it with the same bullshit fallacies and tactics the Christians use to defend their own immorality or that of their fictional god, then I don’t want anything to do with you. You are despicable. You are an awful person. You disgust me. You are not my people.

Even the most rudimentary application of The Golden Rule would have caused any of the people who treated Amy as they did, or Rebecca Watson, or any of the many women and men who have been targeted by this shit, to stop themselves well beforehand. “Wait. Would I want people to treat me this way?” No, you fucking wouldn’t. So alas, you are a hypocrite

http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/archives/2207

So, let's get this straight. Surly Amy went to TAM and people who did not agree with her wore and/or sold ceramic jewelry with sayings that were different from hers, and poked fun at hers. And, someone wore a t-shirt that said "I am not a Skepchick." This, of course, is characterized as threatening, and "misery" caused to Surly Amy. We're not supposed to mock or insult anyone, says FtB.

In the next fucking sentence, though, they call Christian beliefs "bullshit fallacies" and "immorality" and "fictional guard" -- and they don't give a flying fuck about what misery or offense that might cause anyone.

But, the ceramics and t-shirt wearers are "awful people" and they "disgust" Mr. Carrier and the other Atheist Plusers.

This also applies to the sexists and racists and other dirtbags who try to make themselves seem reasonable through the specious tactic of merely not using curse words or insults, as if that is all that it takes to be a reasonable person. No, when you see apologists for sexism and racism and other anti-humanistic views of the world, views that have at their core a fundamental lack of empathy for other human beings and a pathological disinterest in seeing how things look from perspectives not their own, views that place narcissistic self-interest above genuine concern for how other people are doing, even when they try to mimic what they think “sounding reasonable” looks like, you needn’t resort to invective or insults, but on the same even keel they are pretending at, simply declare that they are not one of you, but are one of them. The people we want nothing more to do with. Until and unless they realize their own sins and repent of them. Feel free to calmly explain why.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/archives/2207

So, you can't even espouse a contrary view in rational terms here. If what you say opposes their conception of what is nonsexist or nonracist, etc., then you are EVIL and SINFUL!

This does not mean we can’t be angry or mean or harsh, when it is for the overall good (as when we mock or vilify the town neonazi); ridiculing the ridiculous is often in fact a moral obligation, and insults are appropriate when they are genuinely appropriate

And, of course, abuse, mockery, and ridicule is fine when they do it. Because then it's appropriate, because it's genuinely appropriate when they do it. Because they wouldn't do it when it wasn't appropriate, and if they do it, then it must be appropriate.



Expose these louts for what they are. They are not the leaders of my atheism. They are not my leaders. They are cranks and charlatans. I say, fight them! Fight them wherever we find them!

"There are bitter weeds in England, sir!"

[SteveB]

I've come to tell you about the good word, I've come to tell you all to join Atheist+. I've just done it and I've never felt better in my life. My life was empty, pointless and vain and upon joining I've had a sense of purpose and pride. I feel happier than I ever thought possible. But Atheism+ isn't just about you, it's about everyone (except old white men, of course) and we plan to make the world a better place. Tell Peezus you have privilege and that you wish to make amends for it and he'll wash your privilege away and you'll be forever fulfilled. Perpetual happiness is only one confession away.

Trigger Warning!!!1! :

[Robert_S]

They want the job?

Let's let them go at it. Let's see some books, lectures, events and billboards. Let's see what they can do.

[colubridae]

Why go after Dawkins?

Hint: http://www.playboy.com/playground/view/ ... rd-dawkins

And, the perennially offended, everyone is a misogynist, crowd is not amused....

Would Atheism Plus biologists say she evolved to make men want to sexually select her? Or, is that not correct?

babafce7-220c-4134-a2d8-881f83f0fcfe-standard.jpg (50.16 KiB) Viewed 1889 times

sorry, errr what were you saying

[Coito ergo sum]

Why go after Dawkins?

Hint: http://www.playboy.com/playground/view/ ... rd-dawkins

And, the perennially offended, everyone is a misogynist, crowd is not amused....

Would Atheism Plus biologists say she evolved to make men want to sexually select her? Or, is that not correct?

sorry, errr what were you saying

If you're masturbating, you have to only be thinking about their likes, dislikes, hobbies and educational record. If you are focusing on their turn-ons or their physical attributes, you will be sent to Room 101 for reconditioning by the Party.

[Coito ergo sum]

Let me make it clear, I DO believe in equal rights for everyone.

I just don't want to join your awful club.
It's full of shitty people who've behaved disgustingly, I want no part of them.

And, I don't want to, nor do I have to, answer to you.

Why?
You're an asshole, Richard Carrier.
I don't hang out with assholes, it's really that simple.

And the rest of you lot?
Fuck you, fuck your whining, fuck your tears, fuck your drama, fuck your fevered egos, fuck your middle-class privilege, fuck your entitlement, and fuck your first-world problems.

http://dickynoo.blogspot.com/2012/08/on ... -plus.html

Well said.

[Gerald McGrew]

Ironically, PZ was one of the "new atheists" (the aggressive, in your face folks who didn't care how rude and nasty they were to the religious). Now, PZ is part of the "answer to the new atheists", who demand to be treated respectfully and want nothing to do with rude people?

WTF? The lack of self-awareness is staggering.

[Bella Fortuna]

I've come to tell you about the good word, I've come to tell you all to join Atheist+. I've just done it and I've never felt better in my life. My life was empty, pointless and vain and upon joining I've had a sense of purpose and pride. I feel happier than I ever thought possible. But Atheism+ isn't just about you, it's about everyone (except old white men, of course) and we plan to make the world a better place. Tell Peezus you have privilege and that you wish to make amends for it and he'll wash your privilege away and you'll be forever fulfilled. Perpetual happiness is only one confession away.

Trigger Warning!!!1! :