Bang, Bang, Yer Dead!

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Re: Bang, Bang, Yer Dead!

Post by JimC » Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:24 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:"Many US posters". :sigh:
Well, many were making that assertion, and pretty well all from the US, as far as I could tell...

As they have every right to argue that position, of course, although I think they are incorrect...
FBM wrote:The political will to remove currently legally owned firearms from the US populace would not only be political suicide, it would itself result in armed resistance and loss of life. It just can't be done atm. OTOH, the political will to intensify the focus on removing illegally owned firearms wouldn't meet any opposition at all, I think.
And I agree that this is the current reality in the US. The gun lobby seems to have a lot of power, and there are many gun owners who, although they would not show the fanaticism of the NRA, would certainly want to keep their guns.

From my point of view, I am simply commenting, not suggesting change (although I know BG advocates that). I repeat, it's up to you folk, of course, but it may be useful to be cooly objective of the consequences of the current gun status quo...
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Re: Bang, Bang, Yer Dead!

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:51 am

How many in a many?
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Re: Bang, Bang, Yer Dead!

Post by Svartalf » Thu Aug 23, 2012 4:06 am

By definition, too many, or maybe a many and another many too
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Re: Bang, Bang, Yer Dead!

Post by FBM » Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:20 am

JimC wrote:And I agree that this is the current reality in the US. The gun lobby seems to have a lot of power, and there are many gun owners who, although they would not show the fanaticism of the NRA, would certainly want to keep their guns.

From my point of view, I am simply commenting, not suggesting change (although I know BG advocates that). I repeat, it's up to you folk, of course, but it may be useful to be cooly objective of the consequences of the current gun status quo...
Definitely. And I certainly do see a big problem with the current state of things. Step one, I think, should be cracking down on illegal firearms and increasing the scrutiny of people who are buying them. People with licenses and training aren't the problem, or not much of it. Tougher penalties on people caught in illegal possession, especially when committing a crime, stricter requirements on training and background checks for people buying, etc. Strict prohibition, however, isn't going to be a realistic option for a very, very long time.
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Re: Bang, Bang, Yer Dead!

Post by mozg » Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:50 am

FBM wrote:Definitely. And I certainly do see a big problem with the current state of things. Step one, I think, should be cracking down on illegal firearms and increasing the scrutiny of people who are buying them.
Please be specific about this 'scrutiny'.
People with licenses and training aren't the problem, or not much of it.
The majority of states do not require a license to own firearms. Those of us who do actually train have been told that training is indicative of mental problems, Rambo fantasies, and blood lust. If we don't train, you say that's bad.
Tougher penalties on people caught in illegal possession, especially when committing a crime, stricter requirements on training and background checks for people buying, etc.
I support harsh penalties for people who commit crimes with guns. Far too often charges are reduced so that the case can be plea bargained and criminals are put right back out on the street to cause more harm.

The only people here who have said they own firearms and don't like them or train with them are folks like Ian who said visiting the firing range once a month is something he hasn't got time for, and that he has had a pistol for five years and never fired it.

Federal law requires background checks on all purchases from federally licensed dealers. The background check is processed on a while-you-wait basis by the National Instant Check System (NICS). It is illegal to sell, give, or transfer a firearm to a prohibited person. It is illegal to purchase a firearm on behalf of another person whether that person is prohibited or not. What would you change? What is 'etc'?
Strict prohibition, however, isn't going to be a realistic option for a very, very long time.
But it is your ultimate goal, I take it. This is why you see the NRA, the GOA and the JPFO using the death-of-a-thousand-slices logic. Because every compromise that firearm owners make leads to another call for compromise that is one step closer to a total ban. That is the writing on the wall, but at least you were direct enough to say it's going to take a very, very long time for the strict prohibition to be a 'realistic option'. Most anti-gun people just leave it at claiming they want reasonable, common sense measures.

I can tell you this: you will never get mine so long as I live.
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Re: Bang, Bang, Yer Dead!

Post by FBM » Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:14 pm

mozg, let me show you a couple of things about myself:

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I grew up with guns and in my opinion, the worst thing about living in Korea is being unable to have my firearms with me. Especially with the whack-jobs up North constantly threatening to overrun the DMZ.

In TN, before I could get my concealed carry permit, I had to take a half-day-long class in firearm safety and laws, then pass a written test on it. Then in the afternoon we went out to the range and had to qualify on targets. I chose my 9mm Taurus instead of my .45 because the recoil is more manageable when there is a time limit. This combination of class time plus practical qualification is the "training" I was referring to. In MS, no classes or practical qualifications are required. Anybody can just go in, pay their license fee and walk away with a permit. I don't think that's the way to go about it. Firearms and cars are equally lethal, yet we require a lot more education and training for a driver's license than we do a firearm. It's ridiculous, and I can see why foreigners looking at us say so.

The "scrutiny" I was referring to is a scan of the person's medical (psychological) history in addition to his/her criminal background. I think that's reasonable. If the person has no psychological medical background, a psycho check along the lines of what's required of police officers is reasonable, in my opinion.

If you think strict prohibition is my goal, then please reconsider that observation in light of the above.
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Re: Bang, Bang, Yer Dead!

Post by Woodbutcher » Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:37 pm

I'm starting to think that a lot of those who own handguns are just plain fucking paranoid. In every instance of even a hint of control the answer is "Not while I live". And to own firearms to overthrow tyranny by government: Fucking ridiculous. And it's a self-fulfilling dream. Eventually you will be either killed or committed to an asylum. There is absolutely no problem to collecting guns for esthetic reasons, for sport or hunting, but when you need guns for self-defense there is a problem with the society you're in. Or, in some cases, you're a fucking lunatic.
Don't get me wrong, I really don't give a fuck one way or another; I live in a decent society. I think that the US is a great country just like ours, but there is also a mix of real fucking dipshits gathering the headlines and giving the wrong impression to the world at large. If your country allows you to carry a handgun: cool. If you think you need it for day-to-day protection: There is something really serious going on.
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Re: Bang, Bang, Yer Dead!

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:45 pm

WB, that response is not limited to handgun owners. And it's a reminder that we will protect our liberties. You want 'em, come get 'em.
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Re: Bang, Bang, Yer Dead!

Post by Clinton Huxley » Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:50 pm

The reality of British gun crime...

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Re: Bang, Bang, Yer Dead!

Post by FBM » Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:53 pm

I agree, Woodbutcher. A lot of gun owners are paranoid and in need of a reality check. But most aren't, in my experience. The increased scrutiny of people buying guns might help to weed out the ones who are most likely to go off the deep end some day.

And, yes, if you think you need a gun for everyday protection, there is a problem. Maybe you live in a safe area and you're imagining the threat, in which case you need some professional attention. Or maybe you're sane and are simply responding reasonably to an unreasonable situation. No single answer fits everyone at all times. I'm afraid there's no categorical imperative available for this one.

It's different even for different people in the same city. In East Knoxville, TN, gangs run the place. Shootings there don't even make the news unless an innocent bystander, such as a child, gets hit. If I lived, worked or had to travel though there, damn straight I'd carry.

But North Knoxville is all gated communities with security guards. The chances of needing a firearm there are negligible. A hyper-vigilant, gun-toting type there would almost certainly be someone who isn't psychologically fit to carry, unless s/he were hired to do so.

You just have to keep in mind the wide variety of social environments one is exposed to, and then judge each situation on its on merit, I think. Throwing a blanket condemnation or a blanket commendation on gun-owners everywhere is just lazy and sloppy reasoning, imo.
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Re: Bang, Bang, Yer Dead!

Post by mozg » Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:57 pm

FBM wrote:In TN, before I could get my concealed carry permit, I had to take a half-day-long class in firearm safety and laws, then pass a written test on it. Then in the afternoon we went out to the range and had to qualify on targets. I chose my 9mm Taurus instead of my .45 because the recoil is more manageable when there is a time limit. This combination of class time plus practical qualification is the "training" I was referring to. In MS, no classes or practical qualifications are required. Anybody can just go in, pay their license fee and walk away with a permit. I don't think that's the way to go about it. Firearms and cars are equally lethal, yet we require a lot more education and training for a driver's license than we do a firearm. It's ridiculous, and I can see why foreigners looking at us say so.
Let's just say that we disagree a lot. I live in PA. There is no training or test required for a license to carry firearms. I prefer it that way. I see 'training and tests' as turning what is my right into a privilege. You are aware that driving is considered to be a privilege are you not?
The "scrutiny" I was referring to is a scan of the person's medical (psychological) history in addition to his/her criminal background. I think that's reasonable. If the person has no psychological medical background, a psycho check along the lines of what's required of police officers is reasonable, in my opinion.
I don't think that it's reasonable to open people's medical records to governmental scrutiny, no. It's already illegal for anyone who has ever been adjudicated mentally defective or involuntarily committed to a mental institution to possess firearms. I do not see how any good can come of stripping the rights of people who have voluntarily sought medical treatment for medical problems, but I can see it discouraging people from ever getting treatment because they know it will mean forfeiting their rights.
If you think strict prohibition is my goal, then please reconsider that observation in light of the above.
You're closer to Sarah Brady than you are to me.
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Re: Bang, Bang, Yer Dead!

Post by FBM » Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:08 pm

I respect your position, mozg, but my approach is a practical one aimed at reducing the number of firearm deaths in the US, not an abstract, ideological, emotional or political one. My suggestions are aimed only at keeping firearms out of the hands of people who are so potentially dangerous as to justify having their right to ownership limited, and hopefully saving lives in the process. I have zero interest in restricting the rights of law-abiding citizens. Yet, in the current system(s), there seem to be too many people with criminal intent who are getting their hands on guns legally. This needs to stop.

But waaaayy before that, we need to focus on getting illegally acquired firearms out of the hands of active criminals. Until that happens, I wouldn't spend much time pushing for tighter restrictions on legal ownership. Criminals first. Potential criminals a distant second.
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Re: Bang, Bang, Yer Dead!

Post by Woodbutcher » Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:22 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:WB, that response is not limited to handgun owners. And it's a reminder that we will protect our liberties. You want 'em, come get 'em.
My problem is that I do not see a threat anywhere to US citizens owning fucking near any firearm imaginable; yet some of you do. And some are foaming at the mouth at some of these "threats". I find that amusing. I'm sure that if somebody was found in possession of a nuclear cruise missile, the NRA would fight like hell to enable him to keep that; after all, if the government can have one and if the people have to overthrow the government, they require such weapons for protection. Also chemical and germ warfare should be legalized for NRA members.
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Re: Bang, Bang, Yer Dead!

Post by FBM » Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:24 pm

Indeed, people at both ends of the spectrum tend to foam at the mouth. Centrists are largely ignored for the very reason that they don't. :ddpan:
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Re: Bang, Bang, Yer Dead!

Post by Woodbutcher » Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:35 pm

FBM wrote:Indeed, people at both ends of the spectrum tend to foam at the mouth. Centrists are largely ignored for the very reason that they don't. :ddpan:
I agree. You should be able to own guns. I see no problem with that. Also, there should be some qualifications for obtaining same, maybe a minimum number of teeth....:teef:
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