Bang, Bang, Yer Dead!

[Twoflower]

Oddly enough there are not elk burgers which makes me

That is so misleading!

I know, right? The food is decent, the real entertainment comes from people watching. The amount of middle aged men I see wearing their best camo cracks me up every time.

[Gallstones]

I asked my dad if I could take the .22 with me when I move to wherever I end up moving. He said no, not because I am a poor shot, but because I am a decent shot.

Also he uses it to kill vermin like coyotes, skunks, and big ass rodents.

You'll just have to buy yourself another .22, then. I can help you pick one.

I want a purple one!

http://www.swansonarmory.com/Project-Gallery.html

Open the DuraCoat categories to see all the colors, there is more than one purple.

[Kristie]

Oddly enough there are not elk burgers which makes me

That is so misleading!

I know, right? The food is decent, the real entertainment comes from people watching. The amount of middle aged men I see wearing their best camo cracks me up every time.

[mozg]

I would love to take some of the anti-gun people here to an elk dinner or duck unlimited dinner. Showing them part of the gun culture might help explain a few things.

I'm anti-gun, but it's not because I haven't been exposed to guns. I have several cops in my family, my sister went to Iraq and my Dad carries everyday. I just don't like guns.

I don't like them either, and I own one. What I do like is that I'm allowed to own one.

I like that bit, too. I'm just glad my husband doesn't exercise that right.

What if he did?

[Kristie]

I would love to take some of the anti-gun people here to an elk dinner or duck unlimited dinner. Showing them part of the gun culture might help explain a few things.

I'm anti-gun, but it's not because I haven't been exposed to guns. I have several cops in my family, my sister went to Iraq and my Dad carries everyday. I just don't like guns.

I don't like them either, and I own one. What I do like is that I'm allowed to own one.

I like that bit, too. I'm just glad my husband doesn't exercise that right.

What if he did?

I'm not going to speculate on that, but I would not be happy about.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Pumpkinhead armed...

[Blind groper]

If you still believe, this far into the thread, that law-abiding concealed carry holders are the cause of America's homicide rate, I'm not sure a reasoned conversation can be held with you.

Wumbo

I have covered this, three or four times already.

You cannot supply hand guns to law abiding citizens without also making them available to criminals.

It is not law abiding citizens that kill 8,000 people each year in hand gun homicide. But making hand guns available also puts them in the hands of criminals. It is the ready availability of these weapons that is the cause of the problem and the high murder rate. Along with an unhealthy gun culture.

In Switzerland, hand guns are illegal even for law abiding citizens to have in public, except for special cases. Their hand gun murder rate is close to zero. Such restrictions work.

[Wumbologist]

It is not law abiding citizens that kill 8,000 people each year in hand gun homicide. But making hand guns available also puts them in the hands of criminals. It is the ready availability of these weapons that is the cause of the problem and the high murder rate. Along with an unhealthy gun culture.

We can both agree that guns in the hands of criminals is a problem. Where I disagree is that legalized ownership of firearms, including handguns, is in and of itself a causative factor in violent crime.

In Switzerland, hand guns are illegal even for law abiding citizens to have in public, except for special cases. Their hand gun murder rate is close to zero. Such restrictions work.

In Switzerland, they can still have handguns in their home and transport them in their vehicles to the range. Yet criminals aren't stealing them from homes and cars en masse and going on killing rampages in Switzerland. The assumption that legalized concealed carry somehow results in criminals pickpocketing millions of guns off of law-abiding concealed carry holders while they're out and about is laughable. Thieves are far more likely to steal a firearm from a home, which they can do in Switzerland as well. And yet, with plenty of handguns in Swiss homes, there aren't thieves breaking in and stealing the guns and using them to kill. If your logic is valid and it's the availability of handguns that is the primary factor, then Switzerland should have a homicide rate that matches up, gun for gun, with where the US is at. As per your figures earlier in the thread, the Swiss have just over half the guns per capita that Americans do. By your logic, they need to have just over half the US homicide rate. But they don't, because legalized gun ownership is not the main factor in violent crime. There are far more pertinent socioeconomic and cultural factors at work. The difference between the US and Switzerland, and why both have guns and only one is violent, is a LOT more complicated than the number of guns floating around the population. Looking at one factor in scores of vastly differing nations and saying "Ah, that's it!" is taking a shortcut around a logical and intellectual look at the real causes of these problems. That's not the way to fix anything.

[Svartalf]

If you still believe, this far into the thread, that law-abiding concealed carry holders are the cause of America's homicide rate, I'm not sure a reasoned conversation can be held with you.

Wumbo

I have covered this, three or four times already.

You cannot supply hand guns to law abiding citizens without also making them available to criminals.

It is not law abiding citizens that kill 8,000 people each year in hand gun homicide. But making hand guns available also puts them in the hands of criminals. It is the ready availability of these weapons that is the cause of the problem and the high murder rate. Along with an unhealthy gun culture.

In Switzerland, hand guns are illegal even for law abiding citizens to have in public, except for special cases. Their hand gun murder rate is close to zero. Such restrictions work.

You're quite right on that Grouper, problem is that if you make guns unavailable to law abiding citizens, that doesn't mean they will be unavailable to criminals... after all, making forbidden goods available to those who want them is a staple of crime, and the money of a criminal who wants a gun is just as good as that of a yuppie who wants drugs.

Also, criminals will not necessarily be deterred from doin g crime by the lack of availability of the most practical tool.. but that's been hashed over already. And Switzerland is not a cood postercase... who really needs a handgun when every citizen has his war rifle at home?

[Wumbologist]

You're quite right on that Grouper, problem is that if you make guns unavailable to law abiding citizens, that doesn't mean they will be unavailable to criminals... after all, making forbidden goods available to those who want them is a staple of crime, and the money of a criminal who wants a gun is just as good as that of a yuppie who wants drugs.

And this is another HUGE factor, where the US is vastly different from many other nations in this regard. You might be able to outlaw guns in a relatively small island nation that didn't have a whole lot of them to begin with, and have some success. But the US is not that nation. We share two massive land borders, one with a nation currently embroiled in a violent and unstable drug war. We have two massive ocean borders as well. We have vast swaths of suburban and rural areas, and many, many places where a machine shop could operate under the radar with relative ease. We have millions of guns in circulation already. 3D printing is advancing by leaps and bounds every day, and major components of an AR-15 rifle can now be printed on models accessible to the average American. American criminals have historically been wildly successful at supplying contraband to those who desire it. Look at the joke that was Prohibition. Look at the current war on drugs. Outlawing guns in the us will not succeed in taking them out of the hands of criminals, but it will take them out of the hands of the law-abiding. The criminals, still armed as ever, will be well aware of that fact, and the end result would not be anything good for the law-abiding American citizen.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I'm going to shoot the next person who says Merkins are violent.

[Svartalf]

Uh, Wumbo? LOL ?

I mean, take a small island where guns have been forbidden for even longer than in Britain... Do you know how many of them the IRA smuggled in? Do you know that Roger casement enlisted German aid to smuggle enough rifles to arm a regiment in a single shipment (not to mention 10 machineguns and the ammo to use all those pieces)...

[Svartalf]

I'm going to shoot the next person who says Merkins are violent.

You got Fenian blood don't you?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I'm going to shoot the next person who says Merkins are violent.

You got Fenian blood don't you?

Don't open your mail for a few months. Just sayin'.

[JimC]

Edit : I checked on Switzerland. They are different from the USA in that they have fewer hand guns, and it is totally forbidden to carry a hand gun in public unless the person has a special license which is given only to people who can justify that in terms of their vocation. ie. police or security personnel. So their lower homicide rate would appear to be due to the fact that there are no people out in public with those lethal hand guns, except a few specialists on duty.

If you still believe, this far into the thread, that law-abiding concealed carry holders are the cause of America's homicide rate, I'm not sure a reasoned conversation can be held with you.

He hasn't made such an assertion. He is simply saying that the large numbers of hand guns in circulation in your society, and the low level of gun regulation are major contributing factors (not necessarily the only ones) to your significantly higher homicide rates, in comparison to a wide range of similar countries.

Stated in these terms, it is a perfectly reasonable assertion.