Bang, Bang, Yer Dead!

[Blind groper]

Wumbo

The fact that law abiding people are more likely to be shot if they carry a gun shows that the guns they carry are not real good methods of avoiding getting shot.

If your shop was raided by a gun toting criminal while you were there alone, your act in pulling out a gun is likely to get you killed. If the local criminals know you carry a gun, it increases the probability that they will, also, and be more willing to use it.

[Gallstones]

Wumbo

The fact that law abiding people are more likely to be shot if they carry a gun shows that the guns they carry are not real good methods of avoiding getting shot.

If your shop was raided by a gun toting criminal while you were there alone, your act in pulling out a gun is likely to get you killed. If the local criminals know you carry a gun, it increases the probability that they will, also, and be more willing to use it.

If the local criminals know a person carries a gun they will target persons who don't have guns.
Criminals don't want to get shot either so they will assess their risks and take the less risky option.

[Wumbologist]

Wumbo

The fact that law abiding people are more likely to be shot if they carry a gun shows that the guns they carry are not real good methods of avoiding getting shot.

It's not foolproof. Nothing is. However, complying with an armed assailant is more likely than most realize to earn you a spot in the morgue. At least one stands a fighting chance at defending themselves, doesn't mean it will always work, and nobody with a brain in their head thinks that. I know I'm not invincible with a gun on my hip.

If your shop was raided by a gun toting criminal while you were there alone, your act in pulling out a gun is likely to get you killed. If the local criminals know you carry a gun, it increases the probability that they will, also, and be more willing to use it.

You assume I'm an idiot and I take offense to that.

I'm not going to play a game of quickdraw with an armed assailant. If a gun has already been produced, the best course of action is to wait for a distraction, or other opportunity presents. It is a risk, of course, but a risk I'm willing to take if the odds are good I'll be killed either way. Is it possible my gamble fails, and I end up on the losing side? Sure. But I can pull up pages and pages of examples of people who complied 100% with an armed attacker and were still shot.

I don't let anyone know I carry a gun. That's the entire point of concealed carry. Nobody needs to know I have a gun until they've left me no recourse but to use it in self-defense. It's not a toy for me to show off to people, it's not something for me to show off with as being the wrong person to rob. It's there to protect my life if/when I need it, and stays concealed until then.

[Jason]

The fact that law abiding people are more likely to be shot if they carry a gun shows that the guns they carry are not real good methods of avoiding getting shot.

I don't know why you doggedly cling to your assertion that this is a 'fact'. It is not.

[Blind groper]

You assume I'm an idiot and I take offense to that.

I'm not going to play a game of quickdraw with an armed assailant. If a gun has already been produced, the best course of action is to wait for a distraction, or other opportunity presents. It is a risk, of course, but a risk I'm willing to take if the odds are good I'll be killed either way. Is it possible my gamble fails, and I end up on the losing side? Sure. But I can pull up pages and pages of examples of people who complied 100% with an armed attacker and were still shot.

No need to take offense, because I did not assume you were an idiot. Just made a point in the debate.

On being shot if you comply with a criminal's demands.
Certainly that can happen. Here in NZ, though, the police have advised that compliance is the correct course of action, and that resistance, even with a gun, substantially increases your chances of being hurt or killed.

Now, I do not know the basis of that advice, but the NZ police are connected to police forces world wide, and their information is international.

[Wumbologist]

No need to take offense, because I did not assume you were an idiot. Just made a point in the debate.

Not a very good one. You made a point based on a study that even you admit at this point is flawed, and that I would consider altogether useless for determining anything about the law-abiding gun owner. You expounded on the conclusion you formed through such flimsy evidence by insinuating that I would make such a serious error in judgement as flaunting my carrying of a gun, or trying to play some sort of game of quickdraw with a gun pointed at me.

Part of the advantage of concealed carry is the element of surprise. The fact that an attacker does not know I am armed is an inherent advantage, as that is a card I can play when it best suits me. Why would I want to waste that advantage when it wasn't ideal, or indeed lose it altogether by letting people know I had a gun?

On being shot if you comply with a criminal's demands.
Certainly that can happen. Here in NZ, though, the police have advised that compliance is the correct course of action, and that resistance, even with a gun, substantially increases your chances of being hurt or killed.

Now, I do not know the basis of that advice, but the NZ police are connected to police forces world wide, and their information is international.

I've never seen any conclusive study that shows whether or not armed resistance provides better odds of safety than compliance. If someone has some solid data on the topic I'd be interested to see it. In the meanwhile, even assuming equal odds for either one, I'd rather go out at least making an active effort at self-preservation.

As far as what police advise, I'd take it with a grain of salt. Cops in the relatively anti-gun state of Illinois, in an effort to discourage women from arming themselves to defend against rape, have been known to dispense anti-rape "advice" that includes the idea that making oneself vomit might deter a rapist. Because, you know, we can't have women going around shooting rapists.

On the other hand, the Lieutenant here who fingerprinted me for my License to Carry, voiced his approval of my decision to pursue it and to carry daily, saying "We can't be on every street corner within seconds when you need us".

[JimC]

Wumbologist wrote:

On the other hand, the Lieutenant here who fingerprinted me for my License to Carry, voiced his approval of my decision to pursue it and to carry daily, saying "We can't be on every street corner within seconds when you need us".

Don't get me wrong, this is by no means a personal comment, but this is precisely the sort of thing which makes people from other countries shake their heads in utter disbelief, as if they are suddenly seeing a totally alien society.

So like us in many ways, but so different...

[Wumbologist]

Wumbologist wrote:

On the other hand, the Lieutenant here who fingerprinted me for my License to Carry, voiced his approval of my decision to pursue it and to carry daily, saying "We can't be on every street corner within seconds when you need us".

Don't get me wrong, this is by no means a personal comment, but this is precisely the sort of thing which makes people from other countries shake their heads in utter disbelief, as if they are suddenly seeing a totally alien society.

So like us in many ways, but so different...

Have police in other countries perfected teleportation technology?

[Twoflower]

Wumbologist wrote:

On the other hand, the Lieutenant here who fingerprinted me for my License to Carry, voiced his approval of my decision to pursue it and to carry daily, saying "We can't be on every street corner within seconds when you need us".

Don't get me wrong, this is by no means a personal comment, but this is precisely the sort of thing which makes people from other countries shake their heads in utter disbelief, as if they are suddenly seeing a totally alien society.

So like us in many ways, but so different...

Have police in other countries perfected teleportation technology?

Yes, in fact they have. That's why crime rates are so low everywhere else.

[JimC]

Wumbologist wrote:

On the other hand, the Lieutenant here who fingerprinted me for my License to Carry, voiced his approval of my decision to pursue it and to carry daily, saying "We can't be on every street corner within seconds when you need us".

Don't get me wrong, this is by no means a personal comment, but this is precisely the sort of thing which makes people from other countries shake their heads in utter disbelief, as if they are suddenly seeing a totally alien society.

So like us in many ways, but so different...

Have police in other countries perfected teleportation technology?

It wasn't his comment that seemed weird - it of course is utterly prosaic, and obviously true in any jurisdiction...

It's the whole thing of carrying hand-guns, with the approval of police...

Alien, as I said...

[Wumbologist]

It wasn't his comment that seemed weird - it of course is utterly prosaic, and obviously true in any jurisdiction...

It's the whole thing of carrying hand-guns, with the approval of police...

Alien, as I said...

Well, given the choice between responding to a call for a dead criminal or a dead victim, I think the former is preferable...

[Twoflower]

I asked my dad if I could take the .22 with me when I move to wherever I end up moving. He said no, not because I am a poor shot, but because I am a decent shot.

Also he uses it to kill vermin like coyotes, skunks, and big ass rodents.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Wumbologist wrote:

On the other hand, the Lieutenant here who fingerprinted me for my License to Carry, voiced his approval of my decision to pursue it and to carry daily, saying "We can't be on every street corner within seconds when you need us".

Don't get me wrong, this is by no means a personal comment, but this is precisely the sort of thing which makes people from other countries shake their heads in utter disbelief, as if they are suddenly seeing a totally alien society.

So like us in many ways, but so different...

It saddens me to see how easy it is to think of other people as "alien".

[Blind groper]

As far as what police advise, I'd take it with a grain of salt.

It may surprise you to hear this, or else you may decide it is 'alien', but New Zealand police are largely free of corruption. Their advice is generally expert and free of self interest.

[Seth]

Wumbologist wrote:

On the other hand, the Lieutenant here who fingerprinted me for my License to Carry, voiced his approval of my decision to pursue it and to carry daily, saying "We can't be on every street corner within seconds when you need us".

Don't get me wrong, this is by no means a personal comment, but this is precisely the sort of thing which makes people from other countries shake their heads in utter disbelief, as if they are suddenly seeing a totally alien society.

So like us in many ways, but so different...

And you think that the police WILL be on every street corner within seconds when you need them? (Shaking my head in utter disbelief at the stupidity of that notion.)