If you demand proof, you're "silencing" someone...

[Coito ergo sum]

One side of the discussion tends to be in favor of public disclosure of all allegations of abuse – posting someone’s name and identifying information in a public forum along with a description of the allegation against them. This has been done, many times, and the result is not very helpful. Posting in a public forum allows the perpetrator’s defenders to come out in force, and they do. They are incredibly good at working to silence victims with demands for “proof.”

http://skepchick.org/2012/08/kinksters- ... -a-change/

Gee, I wonder why posting someone's "name and identifying information" along with the allegations against them might not be productive? Do ya think that maybe, just maybe, the person who is being accused might deny the allegations? Do ya think that the allegations may well be untrue?

And, since when is a demand for proof (of a criminal allegation, no less) something to be considered "silencing" of a victim?

[Audley Strange]

Kafka? Borges?

[Robert_S]

It depends if you're trying to raise awareness about things that happen in general or if you're trying to make a specific case against a specific person.

[Coito ergo sum]

It depends if you're trying to raise awareness about things that happen in general or if you're trying to make a specific case against a specific person.

They said right there that they were talking about identifying a specific person and stating explicitly, in a public forum, the allegations against that person....

[Robert_S]

Are we picking fights with the BDSM community? That blog post was lifted from http://queereka.com/2012/08/20/kinkster ... -a-change/

[Coito ergo sum]

Are we picking fights with the BDSM community? That blog post was lifted from http://queereka.com/2012/08/20/kinkster ... -a-change/

I'm just amazed by the fact that folks would say that asking for evidence of a serious crime is asking too much....

[Robert_S]

One side of the discussion tends to be in favor of public disclosure of all allegations of abuse – posting someone’s name and identifying information in a public forum along with a description of the allegation against them. This has been done, many times, and the result is not very helpful. Posting in a public forum allows the perpetrator’s defenders to come out in force, and they do. They are incredibly good at working to silence victims with demands for “proof.” These attacks often include personal attacks on the person making the allegation. While there is sometimes social cost for the alleged abuser, it is generally dwarfed by the social costs of the victim(s) and/or the person who publicly discussed the problem. Once people have seen this cycle happen once or twice they recognize that coming forward and trying to discuss something terrible that happened to them will get awful results, silencing future victims of the same abuser, or others in the same community.

Looks like they're making a case for a practical solution.

[Coito ergo sum]

One side of the discussion tends to be in favor of public disclosure of all allegations of abuse – posting someone’s name and identifying information in a public forum along with a description of the allegation against them. This has been done, many times, and the result is not very helpful. Posting in a public forum allows the perpetrator’s defenders to come out in force, and they do. They are incredibly good at working to silence victims with demands for “proof.” These attacks often include personal attacks on the person making the allegation. While there is sometimes social cost for the alleged abuser, it is generally dwarfed by the social costs of the victim(s) and/or the person who publicly discussed the problem. Once people have seen this cycle happen once or twice they recognize that coming forward and trying to discuss something terrible that happened to them will get awful results, silencing future victims of the same abuser, or others in the same community.

Looks like they're making a case for a practical solution.

Actually, there, what they're saying is that there will certainly be injury to the alleged harasser by being publicly called out, but any injury he (or she?) suffers is "dwarfed" by the injury suffered by the "victim" (of course that word assumes guilt of the accused...)...

The writer of this article follows the basic idea that the accuser determines guilt by making the accusation. Women don't make these things up, because the "social cost" of making the allegation is to high. Women also "set their own boundaries" so if she says she was offended by something, then that's the end of it. Any request for proof is further harassment. And, any analysis of whether the words rise to the level of harassment is improper. The request for proof is improper. Suggesting the victim of an assault go to the police is improper.

What practical solution do you see being offered?

[Audley Strange]

I think if that's regards to the BDSM community there is a very good reason for calling out abusers. They don't just wear snippy t-shirts.

I'd be interested to hear their view on psychological aspects of victim role-play and the contradictory power dynamic where ultimate control lies with the masochist and to query the cultural differences within potential orthodox submissive and dominant communities since it is a long term subculture now. What to such experiments into the realms of shadow and fantasy tell us about human nature and sexual politics? Can it inform our social sciences?

I mean the BDSM folk.

[Seth]

In the legal world unless there is credible proof, publicly accusing someone of a crime is generally considered to be libel, and is actionable.

[Robert_S]

In the legal world unless there is credible proof, publicly accusing someone of a crime is generally considered to be libel, and is actionable.

It seems the article is talking about improving the overall environment rather than talking about specific things done by specific people at this time and that place. In that context it might make more sense try to get everyone to agree on a few measures to help the overall scene be one where people display more respect for each other.

We shouldn't overlook the differences between the situations either. I would think playing BDSM games puts people in a much more vulnerable position and is on a completely different level than going to a convention or running a blog network.

BTW, I'd rather make a sexist misstep in front Rebecca Watson than PZ. At least she showed a desire to raise awareness and share her side of the story rather than name, shame and call out the poo flinging squad.

[Audley Strange]

Err Robert, for the most part it would seem that why people are angry at Watson is not because she she made the request in and of itself, but that she personalised the criticisms of two females within the Skeptic Community publically. she used her position to call out Stephanie McGraw and, I think, Paula Kirby with essentially a retort which said they were victim blaming and needed to read Feminism 101. (People really should, it's an impressive sophistry.) IIRC correctly it was after that that Dawkins wrote his "get over your fucking self" letter.

This is what seemed to cause the problem.

You pointed out somewhere else that in Europe people are bemused by this. I'm in Scotland and I know I am. However I do appreciate there might be a difference in the dynamics of sexual politics in the U.S.

I wonder if there is any corrolation between the rate of circumcision in a population and it's perception of the value of women. After all the Jews and the Muslims do it and they are still pretty patriarchal.

Perhaps circumscision is a signifier in male dominance. After all it is symbolically a sharpening of a sword.

Where's my femidollars??

[Robert_S]

I wasn't referring to differences in sexual politics, but the politics of belief vs. non-belief. As non-belief grows, the concept of an atheist community should become less and less meaningful.

I'm not sure if the Dawkins response was a reaction to Rebecca herself or PZ? I really should research it, but I don't think it will matter that much for that long.

[Audley Strange]

Well since I know you're still over at ratskep, there was a guy there, Epeke or somesuch I think who wrote a timeline of the events on JRef, so he might have posted it there on one of their comedy threads about gender issues.

[Coito ergo sum]

In the legal world unless there is credible proof, publicly accusing someone of a crime is generally considered to be libel, and is actionable.

It seems the article is talking about improving the overall environment rather than talking about specific things done by specific people at this time and that place. In that context it might make more sense try to get everyone to agree on a few measures to help the overall scene be one where people display more respect for each other.

Some of that BDSM stuff involves people who get off on being disrespected and even tortured. When a line is crossed, they have safe words.

We shouldn't overlook the differences between the situations either. I would think playing BDSM games puts people in a much more vulnerable position and is on a completely different level than going to a convention or running a blog network.

So, the problem is that people are going to bondage, dominance, discipline, submission, sadism, and masochism parties, knowing in advance that bondage, discipline, submission, sadism and masochism goes on there, and then if someone does something there that "crosses the line" it's not good enough to have a "safe word?" We have to then say "you should never have crossed MY line in the first place," and then call the offender out publicly? What's it going to be? You tied the fucking ropes tighter than I expected, therefore you sexually assaulted me?

BTW, I'd rather make a sexist misstep in front Rebecca Watson than PZ. At least she showed a desire to raise awareness and share her side of the story rather than name, shame and call out the poo flinging squad.

LOL - "raise awareness." Nonsense. She was starting a shit storm in a teapot over an innocuous inquiry for coffee in a high priced hotel. Fuck that. Such conduct is not something women need to be protected from by sexual harassment policies. It's not sexual harassment, period.