Bang, Bang, Yer Dead!

[Robert_S]

What is wrong with personal power?

Saying that guns are designed for murder, or even for killing humans, is like saying an alarm system is designed to make noise. Superficially yes. But the purpose of an alarm system is to protect property. If it never makes a noise, it has still served it purpose.

[JacksSmirkingRevenge]

There you go blaming inanimate objects again.

Perhaps. But it is nevertheless true. I appreciate that hand guns in the hands of good law abiding citizens are unlikely to be used for murder. However, making hand guns readily available for law abiding citizens inevitably makes them readily available for the evil assholes who commit the murders.

Loonies (and there are thousands of them in the UK alone) will always be able to get their hands on guns whether they're legal or not. If guns really weren't available then knives, etc. are along with any number of alternative ways of committing violent crime (or suicide, for that matter) are.
I firmly believe that society/people are the problem that needs addressing, not the weapons (whatever they may be) that might be used.

[Blind groper]

I firmly believe that society/people are the problem that needs addressing, not the weapons (whatever they may be) that might be used.

Britain has a homicide rate of 1.2 per 100,000 per year. USA is 4.7. Homicides in Britain are less than 10% caused by firearms. Two thirds in the USA.

I think the availability of weapons and especially hand guns is a problem in the US.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I blame tea.

[Jason]

So the only thing stopping the British from going on a homicide binge is that firearms are difficult to legally obtain there?

[JacksSmirkingRevenge]

Tea is probably the solution here.
If everyone just sat down and had a nice cuppa...

[Gawdzilla Sama]

So the only thing stopping the British from going on a homicide binge is that firearms are difficult to legally obtain there?

No, no, no. Humans and Americans are completely different.

[laklak]

Real men don't drink tea. Unless it's got ice, sugar, lemon and vodka in it.

[Seth]

Let me make a point here.

I do not say emotions are wrong. Emotions have a real and valuable place in our lives. But I do think that any person who wishes to live by the principles of critical and rational thinking should be able to recognise what emotions motivate them. I am against intelligent and rational people being fooled by rationalisations. I think we should all strive to discern the world and ourselves in a clear cut and accurate way.

I also am motivated by emotion. However, I try to identify exactly what motivates me and adjust my behaviour accordingly. So if a motivating emotion is unworthy, I try to make suitable changes.

In light of this, I try to point out to gun lovers that their obsession with guns is motivated by emotion, and the emotion is the love of power. It is not something to do with defending your family or being ready to oppose a totalitarian government. Knowing yourself is said to be the first step to true wisdom.

Nothing wrong with desiring to be powerful. Being powerful is a survival trait that's bred into most people (except Brits evidently) as a natural defense against aggression and victimization by others. Samuel Colt called the Colt .45 Peacemaker "The Great Equalizer" for the very good reason that it made 80 year old grandma as powerful as Joe Thug. Only liberal pussies argue that people should be less powerful rather than more powerful and it's usually because they are (like MrJonno) afraid of other people and want them to be powerless so that they don't have to become powerful themselves.

To Seth, who is one who uses rationalisations for his behaviour more than most.

Self defense with hand guns is an illusion.

It is to you, but then again you don't have the first clue about the subject and are talking out of your ass.

The data out there shows that those who carry guns have an increased likelihood of being shot. [/quote]

We've hashed over that bullshit anti-gun report several times now and explained why it's fallacious and biased, so that dog won't hunt.

There is other data showing that, having a hand gun at home, increases the likelihood of a child committing suicide by 3 to 5 times.

Yeah, if you're an idiot and leave your guns out where a child can get it.

When someone like Seth claims to carry a gun for self defense, he is fooling himself with a rationalisation, since the opposite happens, and his chances of himself or a family member suffering or dying is increased.

Actually, you're completely wrong, and lawfully-owned firearms are used as many as two million times a year to defend people against criminal victimization, which is many, many times more often than they are used for either criminal assault, accidental shootings, or teen suicides.

And, it's worth noting that the incidence of gun accidents, including accidental shootings by children, has dropped 94 percent since 1904, largely thanks to the NRA:

Data recently released by the National Center for Health Statistics shows that in 2008, the number and per capita rate of firearm accident deaths fell to an all-time low. There were 592 firearm accident deaths (0.19 such accidents per 100,000 population) in 2008, as compared to 613 accidents (.20 per 100,000) in 2007. In 2008, the chance of a child dying in a firearm accident was roughly one in a million.

Firearm accidents accounted for 0.5% of all accidental deaths; well below the percentages accounted for by motor vehicle accidents, falls, fires, poisonings, and several other more common types of mishaps.

Firearm suicides rose in 2008 because total suicides rose, but the percentage of suicides accounted for by those misusing firearms remained steady, at just barely over half. This is down from about 60% during the 1980s and early 1990s. The firearm suicide rate remained at just under 6 per 100,000, as it has been every year from 1999 forward. Contrary to claims made recently by some gun control advocates, firearm suicides among children are extremely uncommon, and in 2008, fell to an all-time low.

Firearm homicides (including self-defense, but excluding lawful shootings by police) declined in 2008. More recent data reported by the FBI, shows that criminal homicides declined in 2008, again in 2009, and again in 2010, to a 47-year low.
Source

So, in short, you're full of shit, don't know what you're talking about, and can be safely ignored.

[Blind groper]

Just a point on the Branas study, which showed that those who carry guns are more likely to be shot.

Several of the pro-gun faction in this debate think this finding has been debunked. Not so. The Branas study showed that there is a 450% increase in probability of being shot if you carry a gun. The pro-gun explanation for this is that the gun carriers who get shot are criminals. This is partly true, but only partly. The demographics show some of the carry gun and get shot group are likely to be criminals, but a large fraction are not.

So that argument may serve to lower the figure from 450% to something like 200%. However, even law abiding people who carry guns are more likely to be shot, according to that study. Just that the increased probability is less than 450%.

It would reduce the conclusion to state something like : law abiding people who carry a gun are twice as likely to be shot as law abiding people who do not carry a gun.

[Jason]

Just a point on the Branas study, which showed that those who carry guns are more likely to be shot.

Several of the pro-gun faction in this debate think this finding has been debunked. Not so. The Branas study showed that there is a 450% increase in probability of being shot if you carry a gun. The pro-gun explanation for this is that the gun carriers who get shot are criminals. This is partly true, but only partly. The demographics show some of the carry gun and get shot group are likely to be criminals, but a large fraction are not.

So that argument may serve to lower the figure from 450% to something like 200%. However, even law abiding people who carry guns are more likely to be shot, according to that study. Just that the increased probability is less than 450%.

It would reduce the conclusion to state something like : law abiding people who carry a gun are twice as likely to be shot as law abiding people who do not carry a gun.

Yes, yes.. in areas where there is a higher level of gun violence there is a higher probability of being shot. There is also a higher level of gun ownership in areas with higher levels of gun violence. Many of the people carrying guns are the criminals shooting each other and others are just people unfortunate enough to live or work in a dangerous area defending themselves against these criminals. The study is worthless. It does not control for reverse causation and the actual conclusions are inane.

What would be worthwhile would be studies on whether people who live in such areas and decide to not arm themselves are more likely to escape being victimized or not.

[Gallstones]

I have already pointed out that carrying a hand gun increases your risk - making it the opposite of self defense.

And many of us shot those claims full of holes.

LOL :snort:



In a weird mood right now. I think my inner 4yo is coming out. It's silly but I couldn't stop myself finding this really funny.

[laklak]

On hand guns for protecting against bears, the US Wild life Service has already made a clear cut statement opposing hand guns for that purpose, and stating that proper bear spray should be carried, if such a risk is there.

They have a valid point. The best defense against bears is to jangle your keys at them. Scares them white.

[JacksSmirkingRevenge]

Real men don't drink tea. Unless it's got ice, sugar, lemon and vodka in it.

Reported for trying to start an international incident.

[Jason]

I have already pointed out that carrying a hand gun increases your risk - making it the opposite of self defense.

And many of us shot those claims full of holes.

LOL :snort:



In a weird mood right now. I think my inner 4yo is coming out. It's silly but I couldn't stop myself finding this really funny.

Any time I can make your day.