Having a form of identification to vote.

[Seth]

Pay attention, you're a lap behind.

Well, you're being inconsistent because all that's required is that you show your government-issued ID at the polls, just about ANY government issued ID, from a passport to a driver's license or state ID card. If you're okay with that then what are you bitching about?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

"Only the detected fraud"

[Warren Dew]

That's what I said. Read it again. I proved I was me once, at the BMV. If they ask for ID I show my license.

And by showing your license, which has your picture on it, you're proving you're you yet again.

[Warren Dew]

That's only the detected fraud. The thing about voter fraud is that if the system doesn't have stem to stern integrity, it's difficult to detect voter fraud. If I register in four different precincts under four different names because I don't have to present a valid ID, then I can vote four times and no one will be the wiser.

Indeed the present system seems designed to make fraud as easy and undetectable as possible.

I walk into the polling place, I give some strangers a name and address, they give me a ballot. I could have a foreign student at a nearby university vote for me and they'd never know the difference.

Florida recently found thousands of names on its voter rolls who were not U.S. citizens. That's voter fraud on a massive scale.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

That's what I said. Read it again. I proved I was me once, at the BMV. If they ask for ID I show my license.

And by showing your license, which has your picture on it, you're proving you're you yet again.

IF you need to show it, you show ID that isn't locked into the voting system. That's the point. The new ID system is solely to exclude voters, there's not enough actual fraud to warrant the expenditures of taxpayer dollars. We might as be testing for Martians trying to vote in local elections.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

That's only the detected fraud. The thing about voter fraud is that if the system doesn't have stem to stern integrity, it's difficult to detect voter fraud. If I register in four different precincts under four different names because I don't have to present a valid ID, then I can vote four times and no one will be the wiser.

Indeed the present system seems designed to make fraud as easy and undetectable as possible.

I walk into the polling place, I give some strangers a name and address, they give me a ballot. I could have a foreign student at a nearby university vote for me and they'd never know the difference.

Florida recently found thousands of names on its voter rolls who were not U.S. citizens. That's voter fraud on a massive scale.

Imaginary fraud levels are justifiable reasons for voter exclusion actions.

[Ian]

I don't know why, but I expected Seth to be on the right side of this argument. For someone who is always whining about the intrusive, freedom-hating hand of government, on this issue he's perfectly okay with wanting people to have to present more identification than they might already have. Funny how that works out.

As a Libertarian, I expect everyone to play by the rules. If there are to be democratic processes used to determine public policy, then it is completely appropriate for those in charge of the election to ensure that only those person entitled to vote on a measure do so, in order that such issues NOT be decided by fraud and stuffing the ballot box. This is fully consistent with the principles of Libertarianism of not initiating force or fraud. It's of course preferable that government be small and relatively powerless, but where it's necessary to make decisions that may impose on the liberty of others in some way, it's imperative to make sure that only those who are equally at risk from the decision be the only ones who are permitted to vote on the issue. Otherwise, persons with nothing at risk can impose burdens on others in a fraudulent manner.

Long thread short: voter fraud is a virtually nonexistent problem, and even the conservatives here are well aware of it. But they'll defend voter ID laws not because such laws correct an important issue, but because GOP campaign strategists see voter suppression as a viable strategy for their side. Therefore, they parrot this issue because they are mindless fucking sheep. Yes, that means YOU, you sheep.

You need to read some history and understand why voter registration and voter ID laws came into being in the first place. Before such control measures, voting fraud was rampant in many places, including New York, Chicago, Boston and other large cities where it became a hoary old custom to hire drunks to vote multiple times to stuff the ballot box.

And nobody's vote is suppressed unless they are too stupid to remember to bring their ID to the polling place. And if they are that stupid, then I'd prefer they not vote anyway.

Don't you feel uncomfortable bringing up such silly points? Sure I know some history, but that's exactly what it is, history. Hence I didn't bother bringing it up. But you reached for it. Tell me, why aren't GOP-controlled legislatures today crafting laws to deal with the rampant problem of horse manure in the streets?

Every four years I tend to gripe about the class of people known as Low Information Voters, the people who know very little about the candidates, didn't bother watching the debates, but who are pandered to and vote anyway. I sometimes mention the idea of requiring a knowledge test on basic American civics before people are allowed to vote. But the thing is, I'm never serious about it. It's just a gripe. Republicans today, however, are actually serious about putting these laws into place. I can only deduce that they're shameless or crazy, or both.

In the last twelve years there have been more cases of Americans being killed by alligators than cases of voter fraud. I think you guys know what the odds of voter fraud really are, no matter how much you suggest that there must be some massive issue lurking just under the surface that hasn't yet come to light. That's bullshit. If you don't know that, then you're just plain ignorant. If you do know it and you still defend these laws, then you're a coward who only cares about democracy as much as the rules help your preferred candidates get elected. With the politicians proposing these laws, it's the latter. I suspect it is with you too, and you should be ashamed of yourself for it.

[tantamount]

"Only the detected fraud"

Harder to find than the God particle.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

"Only the detected fraud"

Harder to find than the God particle.

Yep. Like the "4,000" above. No evidence that fraud was intended, and no evidence that those people even attempted to vote, but the straws are where you find them, I guess.

[Seth]

That's what I said. Read it again. I proved I was me once, at the BMV. If they ask for ID I show my license.

And by showing your license, which has your picture on it, you're proving you're you yet again.

IF you need to show it, you show ID that isn't locked into the voting system. That's the point. The new ID system is solely to exclude voters, there's not enough actual fraud to warrant the expenditures of taxpayer dollars. We might as be testing for Martians trying to vote in local elections.

The ID doesn't have to be "locked in to the voting system." All it has to do is properly identify the individual seeking to vote. You still have to register to vote, and show a valid ID when you do that. Then the records of who is registered in which precinct is sent to the precinct polling place, and when you appear there they check your ID and compare it to the list of registered voters they have, and if all the information matches, you get a ballot.

It has nothing to do with excluding voters, it has to do with excluding persons who are NOT eligible to vote and ensuring that only those persons who ARE eligible to vote do so.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Bullshit.

[Seth]

Don't you feel uncomfortable bringing up such silly points?

No, because it's not silly.

Sure I know some history, but that's exactly what it is, history. Hence I didn't bother bringing it up. But you reached for it. Tell me, why aren't GOP-controlled legislatures today crafting laws to deal with the rampant problem of horse manure in the streets?

Actually, most cities have such laws on the books already, along with "pooper scooper" laws for dogs.

Every four years I tend to gripe about the class of people known as Low Information Voters, the people who know very little about the candidates, didn't bother watching the debates, but who are pandered to and vote anyway. I sometimes mention the idea of requiring a knowledge test on basic American civics before people are allowed to vote. But the thing is, I'm never serious about it. It's just a gripe. Republicans today, however, are actually serious about putting these laws into place. I can only deduce that they're shameless or crazy, or both.

No, they just don't want the 12 million illegal aliens present in this country thanks to lax immigration enforcement to be able to vote themselves largess out of the public treasury. That's a perfectly valid concern.

In the last twelve years there have been more cases of Americans being killed by alligators than cases of voter fraud.

And you know that how, exactly? As was pointed out earlier, a review of voting registration records in Florida revealed thousands of illegal registrations, each of which would have allowed a person not entitled to vote to do so, thereby destroying the integrity of the vote and violating the constitutional rights of legal citizens and voters who have a right to expect that their votes, and ONLY their votes will be counted.

I think you guys know what the odds of voter fraud really are, no matter how much you suggest that there must be some massive issue lurking just under the surface that hasn't yet come to light. That's bullshit. If you don't know that, then you're just plain ignorant. If you do know it and you still defend these laws, then you're a coward who only cares about democracy as much as the rules help your preferred candidates get elected. With the politicians proposing these laws, it's the latter. I suspect it is with you too, and you should be ashamed of yourself for it.

You should be ashamed of advocating for ballot-box anarchy where anyone can vote the graveyard or bring illegal aliens to the polls and have them vote the "proper" way for five bucks or a bottle of beer.

If your vote is important to you, then you'd damn well better remember where the polling place, what day and time the election is, and to bring your photo ID with you. If you can't do those simple things, you deserve to be "disenfranchised."

[Seth]

Bullshit.

You're sure full of it, 'tis true.

[Seth]

"Only the detected fraud"

Harder to find than the God particle.

Yep. Like the "4,000" above. No evidence that fraud was intended, and no evidence that those people even attempted to vote, but the straws are where you find them, I guess.

They registered to vote. They were ineligible to vote. That's "intent" right there and constitutes a crime. If those registrations had not been challenged, those persons, or quite literally ANYONE purporting to be those persons, could have voted if there were no ID requirements. That's 4000 fraudulent votes that could easily throw an election.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Make a better argument, get a better reply. Bullshit gets bullshit back. I don't respect you or your opinions, so you won't get much effort out of me anyway.