Having a form of identification to vote.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Pfffttt, once you know me, you can't mistake me for anybody else, or the reverse.

...and?

[Svartalf]

and you don't want to detain me, I might forget about using deodorant.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

and you don't want to detain me, I might forget about using deodorant.

You're French.

[Seth]

I don't know why, but I expected Seth to be on the right side of this argument. For someone who is always whining about the intrusive, freedom-hating hand of government, on this issue he's perfectly okay with wanting people to have to present more identification than they might already have. Funny how that works out.

As a Libertarian, I expect everyone to play by the rules. If there are to be democratic processes used to determine public policy, then it is completely appropriate for those in charge of the election to ensure that only those person entitled to vote on a measure do so, in order that such issues NOT be decided by fraud and stuffing the ballot box. This is fully consistent with the principles of Libertarianism of not initiating force or fraud. It's of course preferable that government be small and relatively powerless, but where it's necessary to make decisions that may impose on the liberty of others in some way, it's imperative to make sure that only those who are equally at risk from the decision be the only ones who are permitted to vote on the issue. Otherwise, persons with nothing at risk can impose burdens on others in a fraudulent manner.

Long thread short: voter fraud is a virtually nonexistent problem, and even the conservatives here are well aware of it. But they'll defend voter ID laws not because such laws correct an important issue, but because GOP campaign strategists see voter suppression as a viable strategy for their side. Therefore, they parrot this issue because they are mindless fucking sheep. Yes, that means YOU, you sheep.

You need to read some history and understand why voter registration and voter ID laws came into being in the first place. Before such control measures, voting fraud was rampant in many places, including New York, Chicago, Boston and other large cities where it became a hoary old custom to hire drunks to vote multiple times to stuff the ballot box.

And nobody's vote is suppressed unless they are too stupid to remember to bring their ID to the polling place. And if they are that stupid, then I'd prefer they not vote anyway.

[Seth]

BTW, it's been decades since I was carded at bar. I have shown my driver's license to police four times in 24 years. I've shown my driver's license to voting station personnel than I have to cops. Having to jump through extra hoops is unneeded and simply a way to deny "unloved" voters the franchise.

The fact that you don't get stopped by cops has nothing whatever to do with the necessity of making sure you're qualified to vote. All the "unloved" have to do is go get an ID, which is available in every state in the Union for a nominal fee amounting to far less than a six-pack of Colt .45 or a dime-bag of crack.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Presenting ID at the polling place is not the issue, in case you haven't noticed, it's what forms of ID are allowable to be presented. I can take a post card from the Election Board to the polling place and vote. I registered at the BMV. Simple system that works. HOWEVER, it's not very good at excluding people who don't vote Republican.

[Seth]

Bill Maher brought up another argument. What is the most popular form of picture ID that most people have: a driver's license. Who doesn't own a car: people who live in large cities. Who really doesn't own a car: poorer people in cities. How do "urban" people in cities vote: heavily Democratic. Voter ID: what a great way to disenfranchise urban minority voters.

Horseshit argument, as usual. Every state offers a non-driver's ID card for a nominal fee. Every single one. Or, you can pay $75 bucks and get a United States passport.

Sure, people can say "Well just get ID." That's the point. Have you ever forgotten to make a bill payment, return a library book, buy milk on the way home? Getting ID if you don't have it will be a hoop that some will jump through and some will not.

Sucks to be them. If they don't want to identify themselves at the polls, then they don't deserve to vote. It's no more difficult to remember to bring your ID (most people carry it with them at all times anyway) than it is to remember where you have to go to vote in the first place. You have to have an ID to get your welfare check too, so what's the big deal? There's no evidence that any significant number of people who are legally entitled to vote in this country either don't have or cannot obtain adequate ID to allow them to vote. It's a bullshit Democratic argument that they use because they WANT to engage in voter fraud by having illegal aliens, felons and other disqualified people vote because THEY tend to vote Democrat.

The word for those who don't, in the Republicans' playbook, is a "win." This election, there will undeniably be some statistic, some percentage of people, who will not be able to vote, who had been able to vote before, who are legal voters, whose intended vote will not count. And that percentage will undeniably be Democratic-leaning. By design.

All they have to do is present ID. No big deal. You have to present an ID to buy beer, so requiring it for voting is not a major burden.

Addendum: Many of these same states are not also making getting a picture ID convenient and free of charge. Ever try getting an out-of-state birth certificate? Voter ID laws will go down in history as the new poll tax.

Bullshit lie.

[Seth]

Presenting ID at the polling place is not the issue, in case you haven't noticed, it's what forms of ID are allowable to be presented. I can take a post card from the Election Board to the polling place and vote. I registered at the BMV. Simple system that works. HOWEVER, it's not very good at excluding people who don't vote Republican.

I can print a post card on my laser printer that looks like it came from the Election Board. You need a photo ID to prove it's you.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Presenting ID at the polling place is not the issue, in case you haven't noticed, it's what forms of ID are allowable to be presented. I can take a post card from the Election Board to the polling place and vote. I registered at the BMV. Simple system that works. HOWEVER, it's not very good at excluding people who don't vote Republican.

I can print a post card on my laser printer that looks like it came from the Election Board. You need a photo ID to prove it's you.

Ah, an experienced voter in Missouri? Excellent. But the same ID process that got me the driver's license is sufficient to prove identity at the poll. So extra ID is simply obstructionism.

[Svartalf]

One thing I find funny is how the driving licence is your main form of ID, while here, it used to be treated as ID the same as an ID card or passport, but no longer. If cops control your identity, you better have a card or passport, because showing only a DL will get you major hassles, and last time I bought shoes, there was a sign pasted on the cash desk saying that checks required ID, and that they didn't accept DL as such... looks like fraud has led insurance companies to impose strictures on retailers.

[Warren Dew]

Presenting ID at the polling place is not the issue, in case you haven't noticed, it's what forms of ID are allowable to be presented. I can take a post card from the Election Board to the polling place and vote. I registered at the BMV. Simple system that works. HOWEVER, it's not very good at excluding people who don't vote Republican.

I can print a post card on my laser printer that looks like it came from the Election Board. You need a photo ID to prove it's you.

Ah, an experienced voter in Missouri? Excellent. But the same ID process that got me the driver's license is sufficient to prove identity at the poll. So extra ID is simply obstructionism.

The same ID process with the same ID to show you were the one going through the process would be sufficient.

The only reason to want a non-photo ID to be allowable is so that it can be transferred to a different person without being detected.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Presenting ID at the polling place is not the issue, in case you haven't noticed, it's what forms of ID are allowable to be presented. I can take a post card from the Election Board to the polling place and vote. I registered at the BMV. Simple system that works. HOWEVER, it's not very good at excluding people who don't vote Republican.

I can print a post card on my laser printer that looks like it came from the Election Board. You need a photo ID to prove it's you.

Ah, an experienced voter in Missouri? Excellent. But the same ID process that got me the driver's license is sufficient to prove identity at the poll. So extra ID is simply obstructionism.

The same ID process with the same ID to show you were the one going through the process would be sufficient.

That's what I said. Read it again. I proved I was me once, at the BMV. If they ask for ID I show my license. However, they probably know me, so it's not an issue most of the time.

The only reason to want a non-photo ID to be allowable is so that it can be transferred to a different person without being detected.

32 cases of voter fraud in forty years. This is a solution without a problem.

[Seth]

Presenting ID at the polling place is not the issue, in case you haven't noticed, it's what forms of ID are allowable to be presented. I can take a post card from the Election Board to the polling place and vote. I registered at the BMV. Simple system that works. HOWEVER, it's not very good at excluding people who don't vote Republican.

I can print a post card on my laser printer that looks like it came from the Election Board. You need a photo ID to prove it's you.

Ah, an experienced voter in Missouri? Excellent. But the same ID process that got me the driver's license is sufficient to prove identity at the poll. So extra ID is simply obstructionism.

Right, all you need to do is produce the driver's license that has your picture and your name on it to prove that you are that person when you appear at the polls.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Pay attention, you're a lap behind.

[Seth]

Presenting ID at the polling place is not the issue, in case you haven't noticed, it's what forms of ID are allowable to be presented. I can take a post card from the Election Board to the polling place and vote. I registered at the BMV. Simple system that works. HOWEVER, it's not very good at excluding people who don't vote Republican.

I can print a post card on my laser printer that looks like it came from the Election Board. You need a photo ID to prove it's you.

Ah, an experienced voter in Missouri? Excellent. But the same ID process that got me the driver's license is sufficient to prove identity at the poll. So extra ID is simply obstructionism.

The same ID process with the same ID to show you were the one going through the process would be sufficient.

That's what I said. Read it again. I proved I was me once, at the BMV. If they ask for ID I show my license. However, they probably know me, so it's not an issue most of the time.

The only reason to want a non-photo ID to be allowable is so that it can be transferred to a different person without being detected.

32 cases of voter fraud in forty years. This is a solution without a problem.

That's only the detected fraud. The thing about voter fraud is that if the system doesn't have stem to stern integrity, it's difficult to detect voter fraud. If I register in four different precincts under four different names because I don't have to present a valid ID, then I can vote four times and no one will be the wiser.