Paul Ryan

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Re: Paul Ryan

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:37 pm

Trinity wrote:If people are stupid and deluded enough to vote for assholes and believe the "promises" they're fed, then they can't expect to complain when it all goes tits up. That goes for the States and here. Obama had a vision (and I'm disregarding his religious views for a moment) of unity for America, that's why so many, including me, thought that this was it, change was a-coming, but he was crippled before he started because the system he moved into is fucked and almost everyone who works within it is fucked by corruption, avarice and megalomania. It will take a fucking titan with cojones the size of planets to sort things out over there.
Obama promised unity?

I don't remember him doing that.

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Re: Paul Ryan

Post by Trinity » Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:50 pm

He didn't promise it, he aspired to creating it
Here's to Now.

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Re: Paul Ryan

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:58 pm

Trinity wrote:He didn't promise it, he aspired to creating it
Did he say so? That's what I meant by promise. I don't recall him ever even say he aspired to create it.

Why would he? People have differing opinions, and there it isn't meanspiritedness or an unthinking desire to oppose that have people not unified with him. There is bona fide disagreement with his philosophy and his policies.

And, incidentally, unity sounds good and all, but in reality, don't we like a political discourse that contains vigorous debate over issues of the day, putting ideas through a crucible to test their validity?

Some of this sighing about the unity that Obama so desperately wanted seems to be based on the implicit assumption that the things he wanted to do were things everyone pretty much agreed would make things better. Now, all sides of the aisles want things to be better in some way - generally a greatest good for greatest number type thing - but, all sides look at the other points of view like they will make things worse. So, how can you have "unity" when some people think the other people are just, well, wrong?

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Re: Paul Ryan

Post by Trinity » Mon Aug 13, 2012 2:58 pm

true, there will probably never be a totality wanting unity and cohesion of the positive elements of society; it comes down then to the majority who want unity-a critical mass if you like to precipitate change. This wasn't guaranteed or promised, but it was an intention. What follows from intention is action and I am saying that the action wasn't able to be facilitated because of the dysfunctional systems and people in place
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Re: Paul Ryan

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Aug 13, 2012 4:37 pm

How do you know that was his intention?

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Re: Paul Ryan

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Aug 13, 2012 4:47 pm

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Re: Paul Ryan

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:49 pm

Image :lol:

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Re: Paul Ryan

Post by Tero » Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:22 am


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Re: Paul Ryan

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:27 am

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Re: Paul Ryan

Post by Warren Dew » Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:32 am

Martha Steward got convicted for not talking to the feds about a crime that it turned out she didn't commit.

Never did figure out what happened to the fifth amendment in that case.

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Re: Paul Ryan

Post by Trinity » Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:35 am

Coito ergo sum wrote:How do you know that was his intention?
It is fairly obvious if one reads through the multitude of quotes from his speeches, that there is a common theme of wanting a cohesion, of wanting community, of wanting a commonality. Why do you need a sworn declaration of those precise words? Reading between the lines is what I do, not just literally.

From the "Audacity of Hope" 2006.
"We will need to remind ourselves, despite all our differences, just how much we share: common hopes, common dreams, a bond that will not break.
"When Democrats rush up to me at events and insist that we live in the worst of political times, that a creeping fascism is closing its grip around our throats, I may mention the internment of Japanese Americans under FDR, the Alien and Sedition Acts under John Adams, or a hundred years of lynching under several dozen administrations as having been possibly worse, and suggest we all take a deep breath. When people at dinner parties ask me how I can possibly operate in the current political environment, with all the negative campaigning and personal attacks, I may mention Nelson Mandela, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, or some guy in a Chinese or Egyptian prison somewhere. In truth, being called names is not such a bad deal."
"In a country as diverse as ours, there will always be passionate arguments about how we draw the line when it comes to government action. That is how our democracy works. But our democracy might work a bit better if we recognized that all of us possess values that are worthy of respect: if liberals at least acknowledged that the recreational hunter feels the same way about his gun as they feel about their library books, and if conservatives recognized that most women feel as protective of their right to reproductive freedom as evangelicals do of their right to worship."

There's loads more, but I'm darned if I'm going to google any more, I have a life to get on with!!!!
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Re: Paul Ryan

Post by Coito ergo sum » Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:15 pm

Trinity wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:How do you know that was his intention?
It is fairly obvious if one reads through the multitude of quotes from his speeches, that there is a common theme of wanting a cohesion, of wanting community, of wanting a commonality. Why do you need a sworn declaration of those precise words? Reading between the lines is what I do, not just literally.
Well, the reason being is that politics love to create an impression of X while never actually saying X. That's how they can convince people to vote for them without actually being held to account.

It's kind of like how everything read between the lines and thought that with Obamacare they were being promised "less expensive" insurance than they are paying now. But, of course, the Obama administration never actually said that insurance would get cheaper. They just said they would be providing access to affordable health insurance. That doesn't mean cheaper.

It is what Bill Clinton did when he said "I did not have sexual RELATIONS with that woman..." -- "sexual relations" means intercourse. And, he meant to convey that he didn't have sex with Lewinsky, which is what most people took it to mean. But, it isn't what he said.
Trinity wrote: From the "Audacity of Hope" 2006.
"We will need to remind ourselves, despite all our differences, just how much we share: common hopes, common dreams, a bond that will not break.
That isn't much different than every politician says. Voting for someone based on that kind of generalized nonsense is like voting for someone because they want everything to be happy, fluffy kittens.
Trinity wrote: "When Democrats rush up to me at events and insist that we live in the worst of political times, that a creeping fascism is closing its grip around our throats, I may mention the internment of Japanese Americans under FDR, the Alien and Sedition Acts under John Adams, or a hundred years of lynching under several dozen administrations as having been possibly worse, and suggest we all take a deep breath. When people at dinner parties ask me how I can possibly operate in the current political environment, with all the negative campaigning and personal attacks, I may mention Nelson Mandela, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, or some guy in a Chinese or Egyptian prison somewhere. In truth, being called names is not such a bad deal."
He's against negative campaigning? LOL -- since when? Since his campaign includes calling his opposition a felon and a murderer?
Trinity wrote: "In a country as diverse as ours, there will always be passionate arguments about how we draw the line when it comes to government action. That is how our democracy works. But our democracy might work a bit better if we recognized that all of us possess values that are worthy of respect: if liberals at least acknowledged that the recreational hunter feels the same way about his gun as they feel about their library books, and if conservatives recognized that most women feel as protective of their right to reproductive freedom as evangelicals do of their right to worship."

There's loads more, but I'm darned if I'm going to google any more, I have a life to get on with!!!!
Yeah, well, those are nice quotes, and they are sentiments nobody disagrees with, of course. So, to that extent, he is expressing unity. Sure.

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Re: Paul Ryan

Post by Trinity » Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:25 pm

The thing I'm beginning to realise, in my own life, is that nothing is constant, there are no conclusions I can definitely make or set anything set in stone. We, as a species do not know everything there is to know-this universe is infinite and we cannot know that what we do know is definitive, we are only our own arbiters. Therefore, I do not hold anyone to anything they say at any one time. It is human nature to change one's mind. Again and again and again. I enjoy it when I resonate with something someone says but also, if that person has a different viewpoint so far down the line or does something in opposition to something said or done earlier, then so be it, I can choose then not to agree. That's evolution. That's human nature. So, I understand that, when someone in a position of power tries to define him/herself and tries to compartmentalise their ideals and morals, it is preordained that they will fall foul of their own words and deeds some time in the future. The consequence of that is the familiar stories we see of the rise and the fall of such persons and the fall being more celebrated than the rise. I am more of an observer than a participator in politics. I do not follow it regularly or consistently (as you can tell) but I understand quite well the nature of humanity, the randomness and the predictability, the constant evolution and temporariness of our natures.
Here's to Now.

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Re: Paul Ryan

Post by FBM » Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:30 pm

Trinity wrote:The thing I'm beginning to realise, in my own life, is that nothing is constant, there are no conclusions I can definitely make or set anything set in stone. We, as a species do not know everything there is to know-this universe is infinite and we cannot know that what we do know is definitive, we are only our own arbiters. Therefore, I do not hold anyone to anything they say at any one time. It is human nature to change one's mind. Again and again and again. I enjoy it when I resonate with something someone says but also, if that person has a different viewpoint so far down the line or does something in opposition to something said or done earlier, then so be it, I can choose then not to agree. That's evolution. That's human nature. So, I understand that, when someone in a position of power tries to define him/herself and tries to compartmentalise their ideals and morals, it is preordained that they will fall foul of their own words and deeds some time in the future. The consequence of that is the familiar stories we see of the rise and the fall of such persons and the fall being more celebrated than the rise. I am more of an observer than a participator in politics. I do not follow it regularly or consistently (as you can tell) but I understand quite well the nature of humanity, the randomness and the predictability, the constant evolution and temporariness of our natures.
I like this line of thinking. :tup:

Well, minus the reference to evolution. It sounds too much like Social Darwinism. But anyway, not willing to split hairs over it. :td: People grow and change constantly. I've changed a lot of my thinking from a year ago, much less a decade ago. I expect that to continue, so I wouldn't hold anybody to something they said long ago.
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Re: Paul Ryan

Post by Trinity » Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:33 pm

With reference to "evolution", sorry, that's probably the influence of reading Ken Wilbur. I guess I haven't found another word that's comparable and not so buzzword-like. I am open to suggestions :D
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