You guys and your guns...

[Wumbologist]

No, YOU made a claim about the five instances. I've pointed out the meaningless of that figure, by making a similar meaningless claim.
I don't need to prove it. My purpose was to show the weakness in your claimed figure, which I did.

I made a claim based on a fact. You went on to claim that there may be daily Zimmerman-esque shootings that are somehow hidden away by some sort of shadowy media blackout, a claim that you cannot substantiate. My claim is based on factual crime statistics, yours is a flight of fancy that has no place in a rational discussion. My claim was real numbers. Your claim is no different than if I claimed that in the UK the tooth fairy violently rapes 1 in 5 women and it goes unreported but it really probably happens so women in the UK should be allowed to carry anti-toothfairy rifles. It's total fucking nonsense without evidence. lrn2logic.

[Seth]

Oh, you're friends are not the only stupid people in the world, I can think of at least one of their friends who is abysmally stupid.

I've not seen much evidence of that. You can bullshit, I wll admit that.

I've seen ample evidence of it. And whatever you think, I'm the one carrying the gun, and you're not. That's all that counts.

[Wumbologist]

I've not seen much evidence of that.

Doesn't seem to stop you from making claims, why should it impede anyone else's?

[mistermack]

No, YOU made a claim about the five instances. I've pointed out the meaningless of that figure, by making a similar meaningless claim.
I don't need to prove it. My purpose was to show the weakness in your claimed figure, which I did.

I made a claim based on a fact. You went on to claim that there may be daily Zimmerman-esque shootings that are somehow hidden away by some sort of shadowy media blackout, a claim that you cannot substantiate. My claim is based on factual crime statistics, yours is a flight of fancy that has no place in a rational discussion. My claim was real numbers. Your claim is no different than if I claimed that in the UK the tooth fairy violently rapes 1 in 5 women and it goes unreported but it really probably happens so women in the UK should be allowed to carry anti-toothfairy rifles. It's total fucking nonsense without evidence. lrn2logic.

You did no such thing. Your claim is that there were ONLY five KNOWN instances of violent crime by permit holders.
But the quote then treats that number as if it is the TOTAL of instances.
That's a false claim, not supported in any way by the number you quoted.

I'm pointing out that you have NO WAY of knowing that. Five RECORDED instances does not equal ONLY five instances.
There is a huge difference.
Your claim was a real number, and that real number is meaningless.

[mistermack]

I've seen ample evidence of it. And whatever you think, I'm the one carrying the gun, and you're not. That's all that counts.

And that comment tells me that you are the LAST person who should be allowed to carry one.

[Wumbologist]

You did no such thing. Your claim is that there were ONLY five KNOWN instances of violent crime by permit holders.
But the quote then treats that number as if it is the TOTAL of instances.
That's a false claim, not supported in any way by the number you quoted.

I'm pointing out that you have NO WAY of knowing that. Five RECORDED instances does not equal ONLY five instances.
There is a huge difference.
Your claim was a real number, and that real number is meaningless.

So why bother using any statistics ever, then? The UK's homicide rate is only its KNOWN homicide rate, but that number is meaningless, so you guys probably have more homicide than us.

[Coito ergo sum]

You did no such thing. Your claim is that there were ONLY five KNOWN instances of violent crime by permit holders.
But the quote then treats that number as if it is the TOTAL of instances.
That's a false claim, not supported in any way by the number you quoted.

I'm pointing out that you have NO WAY of knowing that. Five RECORDED instances does not equal ONLY five instances.
There is a huge difference.
Your claim was a real number, and that real number is meaningless.

So why bother using any statistics ever, then? The UK's homicide rate is only its KNOWN homicide rate, but that number is meaningless, so you guys probably have more homicide than us.

Oh, no... that doesn't hold, because you're forgetting....our stats are Merkin' stats...and as we all know, Merkin stats are far and away inferior -- pale imitations -- of proper Yerpeein stats....

[Wumbologist]

Mistermack is the Yin to Seth's Yang. For every absurd over the top Seth-ism, there is a steaming, nutty pile of mistermack-ism. It is where logic fears to tread.

[mistermack]

You did no such thing. Your claim is that there were ONLY five KNOWN instances of violent crime by permit holders.
But the quote then treats that number as if it is the TOTAL of instances.
That's a false claim, not supported in any way by the number you quoted.

I'm pointing out that you have NO WAY of knowing that. Five RECORDED instances does not equal ONLY five instances.
There is a huge difference.
Your claim was a real number, and that real number is meaningless.

So why bother using any statistics ever, then? The UK's homicide rate is only its KNOWN homicide rate, but that number is meaningless, so you guys probably have more homicide than us.

Best not to. The vast majority on discussion threads are used in exactly the same way that politicians use them.
Indescriminately, as a headline, to bolster a point of view. Or just innocently repeated by people who were sucked in by the original statement.
We all do it when it suits us. They hardly ever prove what they are claimed to prove.

[mistermack]

Mistermack is the Yin to Seth's Yang. For every absurd over the top Seth-ism, there is a steaming, nutty pile of mistermack-ism. It is where logic fears to tread.

It's easy to claim that in a bland, generalising way.
But when you come down to real examples in detail, your claim breaks down.

Point out the nuttyness, and I might be more impressed.

[Wumbologist]

Mistermack is the Yin to Seth's Yang. For every absurd over the top Seth-ism, there is a steaming, nutty pile of mistermack-ism. It is where logic fears to tread.

It's easy to claim that in a bland, generalising way.
But when you come down to real examples in detail, your claim breaks down.

Point out the nuttyness, and I might be more impressed.

This entire thread. Whether or not you realize it, you are Seth-tier in the opposite direction. Seth is ostensibly on the same side as me on this topic and I know he's a nut, so it's not a matter of me picking on you for disagreeing. You're simply the same level of batshit nuttery on the anti-gun end of the spectrum as Seth is on the pro-gun.

[Wumbologist]

Best not to. The vast majority on discussion threads are used in exactly the same way that politicians use them.
Indescriminately, as a headline, to bolster a point of view. Or just innocently repeated by people who were sucked in by the original statement.
We all do it when it suits us. They hardly ever prove what they are claimed to prove.

If we're arguing opinion rather than fact then here is my opinion:

Yes, guns are often used by criminals in the course of their criminal activities. No, these criminals will not stop committing crimes if we outlaw guns. No, they will not stop killing people.

Yes, guns are sometimes used inappropriately by otherwise law-abiding citizens but these are comparatively rare situations, the exception rather than the rule. And since guns are used in self-defense fairly often, guns in the hands of the law-abiding carry with them a net benefit. Thus, we should not endeavor to restrict guns from the law-abiding, but rather to find ways to keep them out of the hands of the criminals and mentally ill so that the law-abiding have less occasion to need firearms, and consistently have the upper hand should that need arise.

[pErvinalia]

Oh, you're friends are not the only stupid people in the world, I can think of at least one of their friends who is abysmally stupid.

lol. from the same sook who reported me earlier for personal attack.

Indeed. That's because what I just wrote is not a personal attack, it's a vague reference to stupidity in his friends.

Where's that insane smilie? Of course it was a personal attack. This is why you got banned from both rd.net and ratskep. You think you are covering up your personal attacks, but you're not.

The good news is that here at Ratz I'm allowed to write such things,

So why get sooky when someone else does it to you? Why not just wear it on the chin like you dish it out, and stop the dib dobbing?

[Tyrannical]

Oh, you're friends are not the only stupid people in the world, I can think of at least one of their friends who is abysmally stupid.

lol. from the same sook who reported me earlier for personal attack.

Indeed. That's because what I just wrote is not a personal attack, it's a vague reference to stupidity in his friends.

Where's that insane smilie? Of course it was a personal attack. This is why you got banned from both rd.net and ratskep. You think you are covering up your personal attacks, but you're not.

The good news is that here at Ratz I'm allowed to write such things,

So why get sooky when someone else does it to you? Why not just wear it on the chin like you dish it out, and stop the dib dobbing?

[mistermack]

It's easy to claim that in a bland, generalising way.
But when you come down to real examples in detail, your claim breaks down.

This entire thread.

I rest my case. You can make the big bland criticism, but you can't make one single specific one.
Schoolboy stuff.

And this claim that gun-nuts constantly make, of huge numbers of people successfully defending themselves with guns, is utter bollocks, supported by fake statistics, cooked up by the NRA.

I've said this before. I would respect gun nuts more, if they actually admitted the truth. They like playing with their guns, they like the way guns make them feel, like Clint Eastwood or John Wayne, and they don't give a toss if other people get killed and injured, it's a price they are happy for other people to have to pay.