You guys and your guns...

[Coito ergo sum]

Blind groper, WTF is it to you what we do with guns in the US?
And why should we give a shit what you think about it?

Are you folk so insular, so convinced that the USA is the entire world, that any opinion from outside is automatically, and defensively, dismissed?

A couple of points here.

One -- it's not that we can't tolerate opinions from the outside world, it's that when Americans comment on the goings on and rights/wrongs of other nations, we are very often -- commonly, in fact -- derided as interfering or meddling in the affairs of others, and asked "what do you care about what goes on in country X?" So, sometimes the reaction from us to the constant harangue of others, badgering us from every angle about all the ways we are doing wrong, gets irritating.

Two -- it's not just on one issue -- most Americans who participate in online discussions, or even have many non-American friends and family members, can attest that the commentary from non-Americans about myriad aspects of the United States is virtually non-stop. Especially from the "western European" nations, we get an almost constant string of smug criticism and bashing. Virtually everything we do and everything about the US is lambasted as worse, idiotic, and the ubiquitous "every other western nation does it this way" (often unsubstantiated and many times wrong).

Three -- very commonly, we get snide insinuations, as you included in your comment, that the US is, among other things, "insular." Are you SOOOOOO insular, you ask? Oh, yes, it's assumed we are "insular." We are, after all, Americans, and Enlightened Europeans are so cosmopolitan and multicultural, and worldly, whereas the US, we all know goes without saying, is very "insular." The only question is ....are you SOOOOOOOOO insular that any comment made against the US is dismissed.....

Of course, the ultimate decision making processes about your gun laws is up to you.

However, just be aware that most of the rest of the world is shaking its head in bemused disbelief...

Most of the world? Really? Or, are you limiting your reference to "the world" to certain countries? Another example of smug, self-righteousness -- by "the world" we mean, of course, 10-12 small, protected, western European nations..and OZ/NZ...

[Wumbologist]

I like guns. I also like shooting guns, but not at people or animals.

That's fine if it stays like that. But it doesn't.

I'm sure George Zimmerman would have said much the same, the day before he killed that kid.

That is utterly asinine.

Is it really so difficult to fathom that a person can simultaneously enjoy owning and shooting guns, and have absolutely no desire to hurt or kill another living creature, ever?

[pErvinalia]

One of the reasons, outside the gun issue, that foreigners comment so much on US policy is that it has an inordinate effect on the rest of the world. As much as I hate the phrase "leader of the free world", it's partly true in that the US is the leading influence in the world. That's why many of us feel justified in critiquing your government and your economic and foreign policies.

[mistermack]

Far from the US being singled out as interferers, it's acutally the US that keeps insisting on IT'S interference getting special treatment.

When Russia interfered in Afghanistan, they were empire builders, enemies of freedom, shunned at the Olympics and denigrated around the world.
When the US did the same, they were fighting for freedom, enemies of terror, liberators of the Afghans.

It's the same every time they interfere.
Saddam Hussein invades Kuwait, he's an international criminal, to be despised.
The US invades Iraq, they are heroic defenders of freedom, convinced they will be welcomed as liberators.

It's that sheer volume of bollocks and hypocrisy that ordinary americans are blind to, and get touchy and feel picked on, when others point it out.

[mistermack]

I like guns. I also like shooting guns, but not at people or animals.

That's fine if it stays like that. But it doesn't.

I'm sure George Zimmerman would have said much the same, the day before he killed that kid.

That is utterly asinine.

Is it really so difficult to fathom that a person can simultaneously enjoy owning and shooting guns, and have absolutely no desire to hurt or kill another living creature, ever?

Problem is, you can have that attitude 99.999999 % of the time.
But if you flip, for just 0.000001 % of the time, you can do something in a split second that can never ever be undone.

And guns make it sooooooooooo easy.

[pErvinalia]

So do forks.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Idiots tend to think everybody is the US is exactly like their own insular opinion of us. That's just stupid. We would get justifiable shit for saying such things about other countries.

[Wumbologist]

Problem is, you can have that attitude 99.999999 % of the time.
But if you flip, for just 0.000001 % of the time, you can do something in a split second that can never ever be undone.

And guns make it sooooooooooo easy.

Everyone does stupid shit every now and again. But if you really think that, say, getting a bit too drunk and sleeping with the ugly chick at the party falls into the same category as pulling a gun out and shooting an innocent person, then there's not much of a basis for a rational discussion here.

[Wumbologist]

Idiots tend to think everybody is the US is exactly like their own insular opinion of us. That's just stupid. We would get justifiable shit for saying such things about other countries.

But it's ok because we're just dumb fat flag-waving Wal-Mart shopping freedom-fry munching Coca-Cola McDonalds Brand A'murkins.

[laklak]

I love my guns. And I loves me some good cake. I make a really good carrot cake. If you don't say it's the best carrot cake in the world I'll blow your fucking head off and run you through the wood chipper for hog food.

Just sayin.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Idiots tend to think everybody is the US is exactly like their own insular opinion of us. That's just stupid. We would get justifiable shit for saying such things about other countries.

But it's ok because we're just dumb fat flag-waving Wal-Mart shopping freedom-fry munching Coca-Cola McDonalds Brand A'murkins.

It's okay to stereotype us, isn't it, and to make out like we are all in 100% agreement on any issue. We all weight 600# and own five hundred handguns and love the NRA. The amount of non-thought that goes into that kind of thinking is massive.

[Coito ergo sum]

Far from the US being singled out as interferers, it's acutally the US that keeps insisting on IT'S interference getting special treatment.

When Russia interfered in Afghanistan, they were empire builders, enemies of freedom, shunned at the Olympics and denigrated around the world.
When the US did the same, they were fighting for freedom, enemies of terror, liberators of the Afghans.

Check your premises.

"The US did the same."

The US invasion of Afghanistan in response to Al Qaeta, a terrorist group based in Afghanistan and harbored by the Afghan government, attacked the United States -- is "the same" as the Soviet Union, unprovoked, invading Afghanistan and annexing it.

It's the same every time they interfere.
Saddam Hussein invades Kuwait, he's an international criminal, to be despised.

Wasn't he?

The US invades Iraq, they are heroic defenders of freedom, convinced they will be welcomed as liberators.

Wow, really? The US has been lauded by the global community as heroic defenders of freedom?

Point of fact: The American forces were, in fact, in 2003, welcomed as liberators. Nobody shed a tear for Hussein, and the people were, by and large, very happy about it. The dissatisfaction with the US wasn't in the "welcoming" but in unfortunately the welcoming wearing off. Example:

It's that sheer volume of bollocks and hypocrisy that ordinary americans are blind to, and get touchy and feel picked on, when others point it out.

I think the smug, self-righteousness of folks in your parts is laughable, always with the assumption that ordinary folks in your parts are any less "blind" than the ordinary folks in the US.

[mistermack]

Problem is, you can have that attitude 99.999999 % of the time.
But if you flip, for just 0.000001 % of the time, you can do something in a split second that can never ever be undone.

And guns make it sooooooooooo easy.

Everyone does stupid shit every now and again. But if you really think that, say, getting a bit too drunk and sleeping with the ugly chick at the party falls into the same category as pulling a gun out and shooting an innocent person, then there's not much of a basis for a rational discussion here.

I believe that's what's called a strawman.
I said nothing of the sort, and see no connection between the two.

If you have evidence that poeple DON'T flip, I'd like to see it.

And don't forget, for every homicide, there are many instances where the gun is used as a threat, but not fired.
Lots of these instances don't get included in figures, as they never get reported.

That's still a harmful event, and detrimental to people's security and well-being.

I can remember two of my friends from years ago who owned and liked guns, and were sensible and careful around them.
One got incredibly drunk one night, with a mate, and they got beaten up by the bouncers at our local nightclub. (who they were actually friends with, when sober)
They went home, got the shotguns out, loaded them, and went back and threatened the bouncers, showing them the guns.
The bouncers just beat them up again, and never reported it. They were all friends again the next day.
The guy who owned the guns told me that the next day, he checked the guns, and they were 12 bores, and he had loaded .410 shells. They were THAT drunk.

The other guy I mentioned never threatened anybody. But he got depressed when he broke up with his wife, and blew his brains out with his shotgun. A lovely guy.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Flip.

[Wumbologist]

If you have evidence that poeple DON'T flip, I'd like to see it.

People who legally obtain firearms typically don't. Especially when it comes to carry permits:

""What we can say with some confidence is that allowing more people to carry guns does not cause an increase in crime. In Florida, where 315,000 permits have been issued, there are only five known instances of violent gun crime by a person with a permit. This makes a permit-holding Floridian the cream of the crop of law-abiding citizens, 840 times less likely to commit a violent firearm crime than a randomly selected Floridian without a permit." ("More Permits Mean Less Crime..." Los Angeles Times, Feb. 19, 1996, Monday, p. B-5) "

Seems pretty solid to me.

And don't forget, for every homicide, there are many instances where the gun is used as a threat, but not fired.
Lots of these instances don't get included in figures, as they never get reported.

And on the other end of things there are many instances where a gun is used in legitimate self-defense, and many of those are instances where the gun is used as a threat in legitimate self-defense, but not fired. Lots of those instances don't get included in figures either but potentially save lives.

That's still a harmful event, and detrimental to people's security and well-being.

So is being attacked by a criminal while defenseless.

I can remember two of my friends from years ago who owned and liked guns, and were sensible and careful around them.
One got incredibly drunk one night, with a mate, and they got beaten up by the bouncers at our local nightclub. (who they were actually friends with, when sober)
They went home, got the shotguns out, loaded them, and went back and threatened the bouncers, showing them the guns.
The bouncers just beat them up again, and never reported it. They were all friends again the next day.
The guy who owned the guns told me that the next day, he checked the guns, and they were 12 bores, and he had loaded .410 shells. They were THAT drunk.

The other guy I mentioned never threatened anybody. But he got depressed when he broke up with his wife, and blew his brains out with his shotgun. A lovely guy.

So your argument is that because you have stupid friends, I shouldn't have guns?