If nothing matters, does anything matter?

[pErvinalia]

[amok]

How does it "matter"?

Well, it's not so much how, as why. It matters because that's all there is. It matters like a long, cool drink of water that's there for me in the dessert, as opposed to one that isn't.

Hey, I've never claimed to be particularly deep or clever. I should have added the "to me" thing in my first post.

[JimC]

How does it "matter"?

Well, it's not so much how, as why. It matters because that's all there is. It matters like a long, cool drink of water that's there for me in the dessert, as opposed to one that isn't.

Hey, I've never claimed to be particularly deep or clever. I should have added the "to me" thing in my first post.

Personally, I hate desserts that are too watery...

[FBM]

[JacksSmirkingRevenge]

Yeah, my position is pretty much paradoxical thinking. I lament that "I" have no control over my thoughts, but I can still "chose" at this instant what to write or do next. So even though that choice is predetermined by everything that has happened before me (assuming there is no quantum events influencing my choice), and is therefore not a "choice" at all, it still feels like a choice and plays out exactly like a real choice would.

fuck, my head hurts. I'm going to have to leave this thread. This always ends up happening to me in these threads. It's all too mind bending for me to understand properly.

Rest well, friend. Thanks to the Higgs boson, every thing matters.

Not to overload your circuitry or anything, but consider the recent research that strongly suggests that some/many/most/all apparently conscious decisions are made subconsciously in the brain up to 10 seconds or more before we think we're making them consciously. Free wil requires conscious decision-making. If it's done subconsciously before we're even aware of it...well...the best we can hope for is a last split-second veto power, which is itself tenuous, at best.

...Intuition?

[FBM]

...Intuition?

As evidence of un/subconscious decision-making?

[hadespussercats]

I find it to be a great release from self-importance and the related undue sense of responsibility.

Well, shit. This is my Post Of The Day.

And I would post the smiley for it, but I can't find it, and looking too hard sort of defies the point.

And the best thing you've ever done for me
Is to help me take my life less seriously.
It's only life after all. Yeah.

hmmmm. Where'd I park my Subaru...

[JacksSmirkingRevenge]

...Intuition?

As evidence of un/subconscious decision-making?

Never mind. I'm too stoned to think this through.

[hadespussercats]

Non-dualistic language is unweildy and inefficient, no joke. But I try to consider that it's the whole universe and all of time that are conditioning (not determining) what this thing does. In a strong sense, "I'm" connected to the Big Bang and the sinking of the Titanic and so forth. But without any responsibility for guiding things. For me, it's usually liberating, though I do also sometimes experience the arising and passing of a sense of futility and/or fatalism.

But every action has a reaction, so whatever "I" do will go on to condition future events. Whether or not I'm in complete control of my actions in no way prevents me from striving to do the right thing or to help others.

What's the term for believing simply because it's a comfort? Something credo consolans...

This is the action version of that tenet.

[hadespussercats]

I think the thought "why bother" is actually missing the point of determinism, and instead, falling into the trap of fatalism. It's assuming you have a choice of whether you bother or not and kind of implying that whatever you do, the same thing will happen in the end. The deterministic way of looking at it is more like, either you will or you won't bother depending on all of the things determining your behaviour, - but if you do bother, it will have drastically different consequences to if you hadn't. And understanding this is one of the things that will determine whether you bother or not.

Yeah, this is all true. I guess the point I was getting at was slightly tangential to this. When you abandon the concept of free will, and come to terms with biological determinism and monism, I can't help being left with wondering what is the point of thinking I control my thoughts at all. I know it's not that simple, but the concept of consciousness and cognitive control is so bound up in cartesian dualism, that it's hard to untangle it from those language roots. It just spins my head, basically. I was much happier in the days when I pretended that I was independently in control of my thoughts and actions (i.e. essentially dualism). Now that I know my thoughts are nothing but meat, and meat that must follow strict laws, it's kind of lost it's romanticism and appeal a bit.

Ahh I get you.

I think Daniel Dennett's compatibilism was something along the lines of (I admit I may have completely misunderstood him on this) although there is determinism, there is an inherent value or usefulness in thinking 'as if' we have free will. - But I'm not really convinced. I think with practice of thinking deterministically, and practice getting around the language problems, it's probably better in the long run. For me, one of the main points is counter-factual thinking - questioning 'what if'. It's a very useful behaviour, but you don't have to see it from a dualist point of view. There's no need to believe you actually have a choice, or even to think 'as if' you do. The way I see it, all I have to do is understand that the process of modelling different scenarios in my head has a physical effect in there, that then causes me to do different things (than I would have if I had not spent time thinking about it, not that that was ever possible) - and part of that understanding is what causes me to spend time thinking about things. Or something.

Even though the choices you make now were in fact already made, you can maybe train your mind to make better choices in the future without your knowledge or consent?

(I'm being playful with positing "I" and "brain" as separate entities. But the sentiment is sincere.)

[hadespussercats]

But the meat's neat ain't it? I mean, what are people thinking of when they say it's just meat? What's the other thing more interesting than the meat? I'd like to see it. I almost expect them to be surprised that their hand's empty. Oh, that's just meat. Really, what have you got? This -oh shit, wait.

Oh, and I think amok's point fits in here rather nicely, as well!

[Svartalf]

The golden rule applies, with or without a sky daddy...

Not sure, last time I tried applying it, I got convicted of attempted rape.

[Warren Dew]

Semi serious question. Ultimately as an atheist I see everything as temporary, contingent and transient. Nothing is permanent, concrete and even the thing you think of as yourself is a shadow of very little substance.

Does/can anything matter in this scenario?

Your gene line may be less temporary than any other aspect of you.

[pErvinalia]

Yeah, my position is pretty much paradoxical thinking. I lament that "I" have no control over my thoughts, but I can still "chose" at this instant what to write or do next. So even though that choice is predetermined by everything that has happened before me (assuming there is no quantum events influencing my choice), and is therefore not a "choice" at all, it still feels like a choice and plays out exactly like a real choice would.

fuck, my head hurts. I'm going to have to leave this thread. This always ends up happening to me in these threads. It's all too mind bending for me to understand properly.

Rest well, friend. Thanks to the Higgs boson, every thing matters.

Not to overload your circuitry or anything, but consider the recent research that strongly suggests that some/many/most/all apparently conscious decisions are made subconsciously in the brain up to 10 seconds or more before we think we're making them consciously. Free wil requires conscious decision-making. If it's done subconsciously before we're even aware of it...well...the best we can hope for is a last split-second veto power, which is itself tenuous, at best.

...Intuition?

Look up Libet's Delay in wiki. There's heaps of other more recent studies on this too. It's fairly mind bending stuff.

[FBM]

...Intuition?

As evidence of un/subconscious decision-making?

Never mind. I'm too stoned to think this through.

I envy you, then.