If nothing matters, does anything matter?

[pErvinalia]

If there's no such thing as free will, which is the position taken by most researchers these days, then you're not even free to choose what matters to you and what doesn't...

This can be one of the most depressing aspects. Biological determinism can at once both set you free from superstitious enslavement but leave you wondering why bother thinking and trying to create anything at all.

I think the thought "why bother" is actually missing the point of determinism, and instead, falling into the trap of fatalism. It's assuming you have a choice of whether you bother or not and kind of implying that whatever you do, the same thing will happen in the end. The deterministic way of looking at it is more like, either you will or you won't bother depending on all of the things determining your behaviour, - but if you do bother, it will have drastically different consequences to if you hadn't. And understanding this is one of the things that will determine whether you bother or not.

Yeah, this is all true. I guess the point I was getting at was slightly tangential to this. When you abandon the concept of free will, and come to terms with biological determinism and monism, I can't help being left with wondering what is the point of thinking I control my thoughts at all. I know it's not that simple, but the concept of consciousness and cognitive control is so bound up in cartesian dualism, that it's hard to untangle it from those language roots. It just spins my head, basically. I was much happier in the days when I pretended that I was independently in control of my thoughts and actions (i.e. essentially dualism). Now that I know my thoughts are nothing but meat, and meat that must follow strict laws, it's kind of lost it's romanticism and appeal a bit.

[JimC]

The golden rule applies, with or without a sky daddy...

[FBM]

Yeah, this is all true. I guess the point I was getting at was slightly tangential to this. When you abandon the concept of free will, and come to terms with biological determinism and monism, I can't help being left with wondering what is the point of thinking I control my thoughts at all. I know it's not that simple, but the concept of consciousness and cognitive control is so bound up in cartesian dualism, that it's hard to untangle it from those language roots. It just spins my head, basically. I was much happier in the days when I pretended that I was independently in control of my thoughts and actions (i.e. essentially dualism). Now that I know my thoughts are nothing but meat, and meat that must follow strict laws, it's kind of lost it's romanticism and appeal a bit.

I bolded that part not because I have anything to say about it, but to suggest that you focus on it and realize how deeply that expression penetrates to the heart of the matter...

[pErvinalia]

I know. That's what I'm talking about.

[FBM]

I find it to be a great release from self-importance and the related undue sense of responsibility.

[pErvinalia]

For me it's more like a let down to realise that something else is in control of "me". I know it's not that simple, but with our dualist language, I find it almost impossible to convey what I feel. It just does my head in.

[FBM]

Non-dualistic language is unweildy and inefficient, no joke. But I try to consider that it's the whole universe and all of time that are conditioning (not determining) what this thing does. In a strong sense, "I'm" connected to the Big Bang and the sinking of the Titanic and so forth. But without any responsibility for guiding things. For me, it's usually liberating, though I do also sometimes experience the arising and passing of a sense of futility and/or fatalism.

But every action has a reaction, so whatever "I" do will go on to condition future events. Whether or not I'm in complete control of my actions in no way prevents me from striving to do the right thing or to help others.

[pErvinalia]

Yeah, my position is pretty much paradoxical thinking. I lament that "I" have no control over my thoughts, but I can still "chose" at this instant what to write or do next. So even though that choice is predetermined by everything that has happened before me (assuming there is no quantum events influencing my choice), and is therefore not a "choice" at all, it still feels like a choice and plays out exactly like a real choice would.

fuck, my head hurts. I'm going to have to leave this thread. This always ends up happening to me in these threads. It's all too mind bending for me to understand properly.

[FBM]

Yeah, my position is pretty much paradoxical thinking. I lament that "I" have no control over my thoughts, but I can still "chose" at this instant what to write or do next. So even though that choice is predetermined by everything that has happened before me (assuming there is no quantum events influencing my choice), and is therefore not a "choice" at all, it still feels like a choice and plays out exactly like a real choice would.

fuck, my head hurts. I'm going to have to leave this thread. This always ends up happening to me in these threads. It's all too mind bending for me to understand properly.

Rest well, friend. Thanks to the Higgs boson, every thing matters.

Not to overload your circuitry or anything, but consider the recent research that strongly suggests that some/many/most/all apparently conscious decisions are made subconsciously in the brain up to 10 seconds or more before we think we're making them consciously. Free wil requires conscious decision-making. If it's done subconsciously before we're even aware of it...well...the best we can hope for is a last split-second veto power, which is itself tenuous, at best.

[pErvinalia]

Yeah, I'm aware of that stuff too. Reading about Libet's work was the real nail in the coffin for my simple and naive view of the world.

[PsychoSerenity]

I think the thought "why bother" is actually missing the point of determinism, and instead, falling into the trap of fatalism. It's assuming you have a choice of whether you bother or not and kind of implying that whatever you do, the same thing will happen in the end. The deterministic way of looking at it is more like, either you will or you won't bother depending on all of the things determining your behaviour, - but if you do bother, it will have drastically different consequences to if you hadn't. And understanding this is one of the things that will determine whether you bother or not.

Yeah, this is all true. I guess the point I was getting at was slightly tangential to this. When you abandon the concept of free will, and come to terms with biological determinism and monism, I can't help being left with wondering what is the point of thinking I control my thoughts at all. I know it's not that simple, but the concept of consciousness and cognitive control is so bound up in cartesian dualism, that it's hard to untangle it from those language roots. It just spins my head, basically. I was much happier in the days when I pretended that I was independently in control of my thoughts and actions (i.e. essentially dualism). Now that I know my thoughts are nothing but meat, and meat that must follow strict laws, it's kind of lost it's romanticism and appeal a bit.

Ahh I get you.

I think Daniel Dennett's compatibilism was something along the lines of (I admit I may have completely misunderstood him on this) although there is determinism, there is an inherent value or usefulness in thinking 'as if' we have free will. - But I'm not really convinced. I think with practice of thinking deterministically, and practice getting around the language problems, it's probably better in the long run. For me, one of the main points is counter-factual thinking - questioning 'what if'. It's a very useful behaviour, but you don't have to see it from a dualist point of view. There's no need to believe you actually have a choice, or even to think 'as if' you do. The way I see it, all I have to do is understand that the process of modelling different scenarios in my head has a physical effect in there, that then causes me to do different things (than I would have if I had not spent time thinking about it, not that that was ever possible) - and part of that understanding is what causes me to spend time thinking about things. Or something.

[pErvinalia]

Yeah, it's kind of like spiraling down the rabbit hole. I can never seem to get to the bottom of it. It's easier to just give up and have a beer.

[Mysturji]

Matter matters, apparently.
But (semi) seriously... If it matters to you, then it matters, and what I or anyone else thinks about it doesn't matter.
But then, it's my delusion that science has proven that atoms are only illusions, but everything else is real, so what do I know?

[Sean Hayden]

But the meat's neat ain't it? I mean, what are people thinking of when they say it's just meat? What's the other thing more interesting than the meat? I'd like to see it. I almost expect them to be surprised that their hand's empty. Oh, that's just meat. Really, what have you got? This -oh shit, wait.

[laklak]

Yeah, it's kind of like spiraling down the rabbit hole. I can never seem to get to the bottom of it. It's easier to just give up and have a beer.

Here ya go, rEv: