You guys and your guns...

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Wandering Through
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Re: You guys and your guns...

Post by Wandering Through » Sun Aug 05, 2012 1:37 am

Blind groper wrote:To surreptitious

I admire your willingness to accept the good points in another nation's system, and admit the bad points in your own.

However, Britain has one advantage over the USA which out trumps all the bad. It has no state governments. One entire layer of parasites eliminated. Yay!
Would it be a fair characterization to say the the U.K.'s government, to some extent, has or is becoming a "state" government - subservient to the E.U.? And while I am not very familiar with the E.U. government and it's functionaries, from what I have read that is a layer of parasites to behold.

And I mean subservient in a more pernicious way than the U.S.A's states are subservient to the federal government over here. I realize the U.K. has retained more autonomy than many of the E.U. member states (particularly their sticking to their own monetary system, which is looking smarter and smarter by the day).

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Re: You guys and your guns...

Post by Seth » Sun Aug 05, 2012 1:41 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Seth wrote:
JimC wrote:
Some Americans will never consider that even the slightest criticism of their society is ever justified - how can one ever improve on the perfect democratic society?
It's not perfect, its just the best that's ever been, and we don't care to hear criticism from jackasses who don't understand that fact, much less understand WHY it's the best that's ever been.
Of course it is not perfect. No system ever is. But one should strive as much as possible to make it so. One of the things I do admire about America is the fact that they have a written constitution. I am particularly impressed by the First Amendment which protects freedom of speech. OK it is not absolute freedom of speech but it still protects the words of those who others may wish to censor because they find their views unacceptable. Over here in England we have the opposite, because this country is the libel capital of the world. Anyone with deep pockets can come here and sue someone because they said something they do not like. I so wish we had a First Amendment, but one that went further and guaranteed all speech. But at least you have one, which is better than not having one at all.
It also protects the free exercise of religion and freedom of the press, both equally important values. That's why we don't have a Church of England.
I also like the fact you have a Supreme Court that decides on constitutional issues. It has nine members all chosen by the President and who are balanced between conservatives and liberals.


Not always. All of the worst assaults on our liberties have come from Supreme Court benches that have been "packed" by a President taking advantage of circumstances. FDR tried to get Congress to increase the size of the Court during the Depression so he could pack the court with justices favorable to his Progressive agenda. He failed, but the Court still radically changed the meaning of the Constitution in Wickard v. Filburn, which grossly expanded the ambit of Congressional power over the economy by "interpreting" the Commerce Clause far beyond what the Founders had in mind. But, the tripartite system we have is the best balance of powers anyone has come up with so far, and we, the People, can always amend the Constitution to deal with an out-of-control Supreme Court if we wish, which is another major point in favor of our system.
Nine is an odd number so you will never get a tied decision if everyone votes. We have the House Of Lords over here, but it is totally undemocratic and although chosen by the Prime Minister is not done on the same basis as the Supreme Court.There is no attempt to reference equality for example. Furthermore, there are over eight hundred of them too! We also have the European Union, which is even more undemocratic and can pass laws that over ride our sovereign Parliament. We also have a monarchy Ttoo, which is unelected and unaccountable. The heir to the throne has the right under English law to block any legislation he personally disapproves of, even though he has no democratic right to do so.
Major faults of both socialism and the parliamentary system.
America is less class orientated than England as well, another thing in its favour. Over there anyone can become President. Jimmy Carter was a farmer and Ronald Reagan was an actor. We have never had a farmer or an actor become Prime Minister, as far as I know. They all tend to go to a private school and a top university. They are drawn from a rather narrow cross section of the population. This is not good for democracy. Not good at all.
Indeed.
Also, I love the American national anthem. I mean the emotion behind it when it is sung, and not necessarily the sentiments expressed within it. I particularly like it when it is sung by an ordinary citizen. That is very emotional. I am not a nationalist by any stretch of the imagination. I am more of a patriot than anything else. Anthems can invoke nationalistic fervour. But i just like it what is it is, rather than for what it necessarily represents. Over here, we know the first verse of ours, but tend to sing it on rare occasions. The American one is much better though.
Nothing wrong with nationalism. Every nation and its people have their own interests and concerns and so they should naturally be focused on what's best for them. When socialism takes over, we get the EU, where bureaucrats decide whats best for everyone and then crush certain segments of the populace in order to serve the needs of others. The best government is local government, which is close to the people of the community, more responsive to it, and easier to control.
There are many things wrong with America of course: organised religion, death penalty, foreign wars, gun culture, to name but a few, but there are many wonderful things about it too, such as those I have outlined above. One therefore has to be very careful about sterotyping a nation of over three hundred million people. They do not all think and act the same, like one large amorphous mass. There is good and bad, just like in all nations, and one should be aware of this, to avoid making unnecessary generalisations, whenever referencing it.
Well said, although we disagree about guns. Our "gun culture" is what has kept us free for 236 years. And it will keep us free for another 200 years if we don't let the Progressives and socialists take them away.
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"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: You guys and your guns...

Post by Warren Dew » Sun Aug 05, 2012 1:46 am

Blind groper wrote:To surreptitious

I admire your willingness to accept the good points in another nation's system, and admit the bad points in your own.

However, Britain has one advantage over the USA which out trumps all the bad. It has no state governments. One entire layer of parasites eliminated. Yay!
Scottish parliament?

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Re: You guys and your guns...

Post by Blind groper » Sun Aug 05, 2012 1:49 am

Wandering Through wrote: Would it be a fair characterization to say the the U.K.'s government, to some extent, has or is becoming a "state" government - subservient to the E.U.? And while I am not very familiar with the E.U. government and it's functionaries, from what I have read that is a layer of parasites to behold.
You may be right, though I hope you are wrong. Any extra layers of government are undesirable.
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Re: You guys and your guns...

Post by Seth » Sun Aug 05, 2012 1:54 am

Blind groper wrote:To surreptitious

I admire your willingness to accept the good points in another nation's system, and admit the bad points in your own.

However, Britain has one advantage over the USA which out trumps all the bad. It has no state governments. One entire layer of parasites eliminated. Yay!
State government is not a flaw, it's a feature. Combined with the Separation of Powers doctrine and state sovereignty, it improves government by keeping (at least up until the Progressives came along) that government which has the most effect on the lives of individuals close to and under the control of those individuals. The geographic interests of the states are best served by legislatures close to the people and the issues. The largest problem we have right now is an unresponsive and arrogant federal government that still owns more than 30 percent of the land west of the Mississippi (up to 80+ percent in some places like Nevada) and tries to administer it from Washington. The federal government should be forced, by constitutional amendment if necessary, to divest itself of ALL land holdings other than those specified in Article 1, Section 8, including "Forts, arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful BUILDINGS. (emphasis added). All vacant lands not used for the above purposes or for post offices and post roads should be turned over to the states to administer, a requirement of the Equal Footing Doctrine by which later states were admitted to the Union, which requires that these later states must be given equal footing with the original 13 colonies, something the Congress deliberately ignored in most of the western states when it required the inhabitants to surrender all right and title to the lands of the new state to Congress, for Congress to dispose of (or not) as it saw fit. This was NOT a requirement of the original 13 colonies, nor of most of the first two rounds of states added, all of which are east of the Mississippi.

The Founder's original intent was that the central federal government be small and relatively powerless and that it only exercise jurisdiction over things best handled by a central authority, which did not include owning vast swaths of land in perpetuity.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: You guys and your guns...

Post by Blind groper » Sun Aug 05, 2012 1:55 am

Seth wrote: we disagree about guns. Our "gun culture" is what has kept us free for 236 years. And it will keep us free for another 200 years if we don't let the Progressives and socialists take them away.
Total crap.

The advanced western nations who have avoided the American style gun culture are free. Britain, France, Germany, Canada etc retain all the freedoms that are desirable, which can be equated approximately to adherence to the United Nations Charter of Human Rights. Any nation that gives those rights to its people can be called free.

The only freedoms that have been taken away are those freedoms that are undesirable, like the freedom to own a hand gun, or drive drunk, or recklessly, or to interfere with the rights of other people.

America's gun culture has done nothing to ensure freedom. That comes from a government that knows it will be voted out of existence if it fails to take care of the voters.
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Re: You guys and your guns...

Post by Blind groper » Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:02 am

Seth wrote:
State government is not a flaw, it's a feature.
State government is a historical anomaly. It arose back in the days when travel and communication took weeks, or even months. Back then, local or state government was needed to provide for the people, since applying for a ruling or for physical assistance from a central government would have taken too long.

Things have changed. Today, a person can fly across continents in mere hours. Communication is instant. The old reasons for having state government have disappeared. The only reason state government persists is a whole bunch of politicians and their minions, with their snouts in the public trough, swilling away to make themselves fat at the tax payers expense, who will fight tooth and nail to maintain their privileges.

By eliminating state government, and having nationwide laws instead of stupid local regulations, overall government will shrink. Smaller government, and less taxation, which is eminently desirable.
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Re: You guys and your guns...

Post by Warren Dew » Sun Aug 05, 2012 3:24 am

Wandering Through wrote:And I mean subservient in a more pernicious way than the U.S.A's states are subservient to the federal government over here.
What makes you think it's more pernicious? The balance of power between the EU government and its states is much more strongly with the states than between the U.S. government and its states, which makes the EU much more flexible. The EU is really much closer to the Articles of Confederation than to our present government.

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Re: You guys and your guns...

Post by Warren Dew » Sun Aug 05, 2012 3:31 am

Blind groper wrote:
Seth wrote: we disagree about guns. Our "gun culture" is what has kept us free for 236 years. And it will keep us free for another 200 years if we don't let the Progressives and socialists take them away.
...

The advanced western nations who have avoided the American style gun culture are free. Britain, France, Germany, Canada etc retain all the freedoms that are desirable, which can be equated approximately to adherence to the United Nations Charter of Human Rights. Any nation that gives those rights to its people can be called free.
They don't have the freedom of speech that surreptitious57 likes about the U.S. And yes, I think those are linked.
America's gun culture has done nothing to ensure freedom. That comes from a government that knows it will be voted out of existence if it fails to take care of the voters.
Without the guns, the government could easily register graveyards and have its employees vote them, while disenfranchising anyone not an agent of the government. Ultimately it's the guns that protect the voters' votes.

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Re: You guys and your guns...

Post by Blind groper » Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:00 am

Warren Dew wrote: They don't have the freedom of speech that surreptitious57 likes about the U.S.


Without the guns, the government could easily register graveyards and have its employees vote them, while disenfranchising anyone not an agent of the government. Ultimately it's the guns that protect the voters' votes.

I have to disagree.

1. Freedom of speech.
Here in NZ and also in Australia (I assume similar in other places, but I know NZ and Oz best) we have a very high degree of freedom of speech. I can say what I like, even to calling the Prime Minister a total dickhead, or worse, with no consequence. The only time freedom of speech is limited is in telling vicious and deliberate lies. I agree that we should not be permitted to do this.

2. Guns and voters rights.
Guns do not protect voters rights. The places in the world (except the US) where voters rights are best protected are all places where guns are limited. I mean those advanced western nations I spoke of before. The places where voters rights are most corrupted are also places where guns are widespread, like Afghanistan, African nations, and so on.
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Re: You guys and your guns...

Post by JimC » Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:10 am

Blind groper wrote:
Warren Dew wrote: They don't have the freedom of speech that surreptitious57 likes about the U.S.


Without the guns, the government could easily register graveyards and have its employees vote them, while disenfranchising anyone not an agent of the government. Ultimately it's the guns that protect the voters' votes.

I have to disagree.

1. Freedom of speech.
Here in NZ and also in Australia (I assume similar in other places, but I know NZ and Oz best) we have a very high degree of freedom of speech. I can say what I like, even to calling the Prime Minister a total dickhead, or worse, with no consequence. The only time freedom of speech is limited is in telling vicious and deliberate lies. I agree that we should not be permitted to do this.

2. Guns and voters rights.
Guns do not protect voters rights. The places in the world (except the US) where voters rights are best protected are all places where guns are limited. I mean those advanced western nations I spoke of before. The places where voters rights are most corrupted are also places where guns are widespread, like Afghanistan, African nations, and so on.
Agreed, and in addition the existence of both a free press (even if it has its own tendencies to minor corruption), and the rule of law via an independent judiciary are both absolutely vital components in maintaing freedom.

The romantic delusion that an armed citizenry is required to forestall an evil government in the present-day world is a peculiar and aberrant feature of a certain element within the US. They pretend that virtually all Americans support them in this, but this is hype and political spin. However, it is a group with considerable political clout, and no government will risk the backlash they could create, in tight elections.
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Re: You guys and your guns...

Post by Warren Dew » Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:48 am

Blind groper wrote:Here in NZ and also in Australia (I assume similar in other places, but I know NZ and Oz best) we have a very high degree of freedom of speech. I can say what I like, even to calling the Prime Minister a total dickhead, or worse, with no consequence. The only time freedom of speech is limited is in telling vicious and deliberate lies. I agree that we should not be permitted to do this.
How does your situation compare to the UK, or Canada? There, hate speech laws essentially prohibit even rational discussion of certain subjects.
Guns do not protect voters rights. The places in the world (except the US) where voters rights are best protected are all places where guns are limited.
Hardly. The power of appointed offices in the E.U. has risen to the point where the Greeks complain about being dictated to by German bureaucrats, without any real democratic voice over their fate.

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Re: You guys and your guns...

Post by Blind groper » Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:07 am

Warren Dew wrote: How does your situation compare to the UK, or Canada? There, hate speech laws essentially prohibit even rational discussion of certain subjects.

The power of appointed offices in the E.U. has risen to the point where the Greeks complain about being dictated to by German bureaucrats, without any real democratic voice over their fate.
On point 1. Restrictions on rational discussion does not exist. However, if a person deliberately spreads a damaging untruth, the victim can sue. I think this also applies in the US? Am I right?

On point 2. Is this not equivalent to a Texan complaining that he cannot complain about a federal law to his state government?

I do agree that the current situation in Europe is strange - with trans-Europe laws and national laws having to operate together. While I think that unity and working together ( E pluribus unum) is a good thing, it is not always easy.
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Re: You guys and your guns...

Post by JimC » Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:12 am

Blind groper wrote:
Warren Dew wrote: How does your situation compare to the UK, or Canada? There, hate speech laws essentially prohibit even rational discussion of certain subjects.

The power of appointed offices in the E.U. has risen to the point where the Greeks complain about being dictated to by German bureaucrats, without any real democratic voice over their fate.
On point 1. Restrictions on rational discussion does not exist. However, if a person deliberately spreads a damaging untruth, the victim can sue. I think this also applies in the US? Am I right?

On point 2. Is this not equivalent to a Texan complaining that he cannot complain about a federal law to his state government?

I do agree that the current situation in Europe is strange - with trans-Europe laws and national laws having to operate together. While I think that unity and working together ( E pluribus unum) is a good thing, it is not always easy.
The current European situation is a dangerous one, but not because of individuals having their freedoms removed by other governments; it is the result of a series of economic blunders and mismanagement, plus the greed of too many within the international finance sector. Plus widespread corruption and featherbedding...
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Re: You guys and your guns...

Post by Blind groper » Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:31 am

JimC wrote:it is the result of a series of economic blunders and mismanagement, plus the greed of too many within the international finance sector. Plus widespread corruption and featherbedding...
I think we could claim that of the United States also.
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