You guys and your guns...

[JimC]

I think that the widespread existence of hand guns, and the relatively loose gun laws on average in America (compared to other countries) must be a major factor in your considerably higher murder rates

Only because of your imperviousness to the facts. When I choose the U.S. state most similar to New Zealand - New Hampshire, because it's small and mountainous, not to mention it has "New" as the first word of its name - it has a lower murder rate and much freer gun laws.

The facts seem to indicate that New Zealand's stricter gun laws cause its higher murder rate.

Blind Groper has already answered that; one of your states is bound to be the statistical outlier, with the lowest murder rate. For a start, it is cherry-picking to the extreme to choose that state to make your point, and in addition, we are comparing countries with countries, not countries with states.

The pro-gun side of this debate has argued consistently that there are other factors influencing murder rates apart from hand-gun prevalence, such as gang warfare and drugs, and I quite agree (as I said in the part of my post you didn't quote...). New Hampshire is simply the flip side of that...

[laklak]

The interesting thing about New Hampshire is it's the most Libertarian state in the nation. They are the only state that does not require adults to wear seatbelts. They are an open carry state, meaning any citizen, with no permit or other state permission, may carry a weapon openly. There is no gun registration, to buy a gun you have to be 21 or older and have the money to pay for it. The state motto is "Live Free or Die". Yet they have the lowest murder rate. Why?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

The interesting thing about New Hampshire is it's the most Libertarian state in the nation. They are the only state that does not require adults to wear seatbelts. They are an open carry state, meaning any citizen, with no permit or other state permission, may carry a weapon openly. There is no gun registration, to buy a gun you have to be 21 or older and have the money to pay for it. The state motto is "Live Free or Die". Yet they have the lowest murder rate. Why?

The state borders are close by? Export that shit?

[laklak]

Ah, that explains it!

[Warren Dew]

I think that the widespread existence of hand guns, and the relatively loose gun laws on average in America (compared to other countries) must be a major factor in your considerably higher murder rates

Only because of your imperviousness to the facts. When I choose the U.S. state most similar to New Zealand - New Hampshire, because it's small and mountainous, not to mention it has "New" as the first word of its name - it has a lower murder rate and much freer gun laws.

The facts seem to indicate that New Zealand's stricter gun laws cause its higher murder rate.

Blind Groper has already answered that; one of your states is bound to be the statistical outlier, with the lowest murder rate. For a start, it is cherry-picking to the extreme to choose that state to make your point, and in addition, we are comparing countries with countries, not countries with states.

Ah, so when I pick U.S. states that happen to have low murder rates, it's cherry picking, but when he picks European states that happen to have low murder rates, it's not cherry picking. I guess that's some kind of upside down logic that only makes sense in the southern hemisphere?

[Warren Dew]

The interesting thing about New Hampshire is it's the most Libertarian state in the nation. They are the only state that does not require adults to wear seatbelts. They are an open carry state, meaning any citizen, with no permit or other state permission, may carry a weapon openly. There is no gun registration, to buy a gun you have to be 21 or older and have the money to pay for it. The state motto is "Live Free or Die". Yet they have the lowest murder rate. Why?

The state borders are close by? Export that shit?

That must explain it. New Zealand is surrounded by ocean so even though they ban the guns, the guns are stuck there, explaining their high murder rate. In New Hampshire, there are plenty of borders nearby, so even though guns are legal and nearly unrestricted, its citizens - what? - keep accidentally forgetting their pens and guns on adjacent states, so they can't be used for murder. Must be it.

[JimC]

I think that the widespread existence of hand guns, and the relatively loose gun laws on average in America (compared to other countries) must be a major factor in your considerably higher murder rates

Only because of your imperviousness to the facts. When I choose the U.S. state most similar to New Zealand - New Hampshire, because it's small and mountainous, not to mention it has "New" as the first word of its name - it has a lower murder rate and much freer gun laws.

The facts seem to indicate that New Zealand's stricter gun laws cause its higher murder rate.

Blind Groper has already answered that; one of your states is bound to be the statistical outlier, with the lowest murder rate. For a start, it is cherry-picking to the extreme to choose that state to make your point, and in addition, we are comparing countries with countries, not countries with states.

Ah, so when I pick U.S. states that happen to have low murder rates, it's cherry picking, but when he picks European states that happen to have low murder rates, it's not cherry picking. I guess that's some kind of upside down logic that only makes sense in the southern hemisphere?

He used a large number of first world countries with functioning democracies and a similar level of technology/urbanisation. In combination, they represent a perfectly fair basis for comparison. However, I don't ascribe the highly significant difference in murder rates purely to differences in the number of available handguns, and/or the major differences in gun legislation; I agree that the US has some other factors operating, and that there is significant variation from place to place in the US.

However, it would still have to be a major factor. For me, the main lesson does not involve telling you folks to change - that's up to you. As I have said before, I see the main lesson for Australia, and other comparable countries, is that we should hang on to our tight restrictions on handguns and assault rifles come hell or high water...

[Blind groper]

Warren

Doh!

New Hampshire is just one end of the normal distribution curve.

I have been accused of cherry picking but that is ridiculous!

Incidentally, the reference I checked on crime in New Hampshire ascribed the low murder rate to the fact that very large numbers of Hispanics and African Americans are thrown in prison. I expect that reduces the number of those ethnic groups who want to hang around, especially if they are criminally inclined. Which means they export their problems to other states.

I do not know if that is true. But the reference did.

[Warren Dew]

He used a large number of first world countries with functioning democracies and a similar level of technology/urbanisation. In combination, they represent a perfectly fair basis for comparison.

Yet when I do the same, it's "cherry picking". Like I said, upside down logic.

[Blind groper]

No Warren.

I was not cherry picking. I wanted something to compare the high US murder rate to, to put it into perspective. It seems logical to compare America to other western advanced and reasonably affluent nations, which is what I did. And the USA looks pretty damn sick by comparison. The murder rate is simply too high.

It may be that gun laws are indeed only one reason for that, but the fact that half of all murders are done with hand guns, where almost none are committed with hand guns in the peer group nations, indicates that hand guns are a problem.

[Warren Dew]

I was not cherry picking. I wanted something to compare the high US murder rate to, to put it into perspective.

I wasn't cherry picking either. I wanted a state to compare the high New Zealand murder rate to, to put it in perspective. It seems logical to compare New Zealand to mountainous states with moderate population density and no large metropolises, which is what I did.

It may be that gun restrictions are only part of the reason for your high murder rate, but the direct comparison indicates that loosening those laws would help bring your murder rates down.

[Tyrannical]

So what's your excuse for having a murder rate almost twice as high as New Hampshire's?

Out of 50 states, there has to be one with the lowest murder rate, which turns out to be New Hampshire with a homicide rate of about 1 per 100,000 people per year. Similar to Australia. Not half that of NZ, which has 1.4.

New Hampshire also has the highest rate of imprisoning ethnic minorities in the USA, so I am not sure that this is something to be proud of. We could all do that - put anyone with the slightest hint of being criminal (ie being of Hispanic or African descent) into prison, and lower the murder rate that way.

New Zealand has substantially more ethnic minority in its population that the USA - round 30%. This includes our indigenous Polynesian people - the Maori - who sadly have the highest criminal offending rate in NZ per capita, and especially including violent offending. Despite our high percentage of ethnic minorities, and due to our strong gun laws, our murder rate is less than a third of the USA.

Vermont has the highest incarceration rate for Blacks in the nation, and that is due to out of State drug traffickers getting arrested. I suspect NH for the same reason, unless I got Vermont and New Hampshire confused or we are looking at a different year's data.

Here are some US States on the low end of the murder rate scale. 2010 data , murders per 100K people.
Hawaii 1.8
Idaho 1.3
Iowa 1.3
New Hampshire 1.0
Maine 1.8
Minnesota 1.8
North Dakota 1.5
Vermont 1.1
Wyoming 1.4

[Jason]

In other news, I contributed to the Canadian gun culture by purchasing another rifle yesterday. It's ok, just a baby - Marlin .22 magnum. I did, however, fire it wildly today in random directions.

[Warren Dew]

Here are some US States on the low end of the murder rate scale. 2010 data , murders per 100K people.
Hawaii 1.8
Idaho 1.3
Iowa 1.3
New Hampshire 1.0
Maine 1.8
Minnesota 1.8
North Dakota 1.5
Vermont 1.1
Wyoming 1.4

Are those the top 9? Here are the 9 states with the most racially uniform populations, and thus the most like western Europe, with the percentage white population:

Maine 96.9%
Vermont 96.8%
New Hampshire 96.0%
West Virginia 95.0%
Iowa 93.9%
North Dakota 92.4%
Wyoming 92.1%
Idaho 91.0%
Montana 90.6%

http://www.statjump.com/lists/white-pop ... c52ts.html

7 out of 9 states on each list are also on the other list. Imagine that! But no, it couldn't be the racial or ethnic uniformity in European nations that makes their murder rates as low as these states - it must be the gun control laws that these states don't have!

[JimC]

In other news, I contributed to the Canadian gun culture by purchasing another rifle yesterday. It's ok, just a baby - Marlin .22 magnum. I did, however, fire it wildly today in random directions.

You're making me feel nostalgic for my lovely little Ruger .22 semi-automatic, that sent many an Aussie bunny to rabbit heaven...