National Forest off-limits to all but Indians

Seth
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Re: National Forest off-limits to all but Indians

Post by Seth » Thu Aug 02, 2012 7:56 pm

Tero wrote:
Seth wrote:
Animavore wrote:Which "religious practices" are these you're referring to?
Indian religious practices of course.......

Why can't their "traditional and cultural" practices coexist with use by other citizens, just like we have to coexist with others when using the Forests? What's so special about them?
And look how well that coexisting went. The only Indians/Natives that retained useful lands are in Alaska. We lease mineral rights from their co-op.
Er, you're ignoring all the casinos, not to mention the recreational venues and the Peabody coal mine on Navajo reservation lands, among others.

Again, why should they get special rights on federal public lands?
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"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: National Forest off-limits to all but Indians

Post by Seth » Thu Aug 02, 2012 7:57 pm

Tyrannical wrote:Ah, federal land us tricky. Indians have no legal right, and by right I mean right, to be on State land except by State law. A State is within it's right to quarantine them within Indian or Federal land. Indians only hold US citizenship and the privallage to vote under federal law.
Er, nope, you're completely wrong. As they are US citizens, they have the same right to be on any state land that any other citizen has.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: National Forest off-limits to all but Indians

Post by Beatsong » Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:32 pm

Seth wrote:
Wumbologist wrote:I don't give a shit what they're using it for but I figure, all things considered, the least we can do is let them borrow their land back every now and again.
Why? It's not theirs anymore. We had a war, they lost. Tough shit.

So now you lose, for one day. Tough shit.

Why is it so difficult to understand the same logic when it applies the other way?

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Tero
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Re: National Forest off-limits to all but Indians

Post by Tero » Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:32 pm

Yeah yeah, everything is a contract. Fine, when I take over, state owns all. All deeds turn into 100 year contracts or till death of renter.

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Re: National Forest off-limits to all but Indians

Post by Tero » Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:41 pm

Seth is partly right though. I would give permits to anyone to camp or hike there. The permits can be limited to some number per day. No motor vehicles. I hate ATV noise all over the place.

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Re: National Forest off-limits to all but Indians

Post by Seth » Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:42 pm

Beatsong wrote:
Seth wrote:
Wumbologist wrote:I don't give a shit what they're using it for but I figure, all things considered, the least we can do is let them borrow their land back every now and again.
Why? It's not theirs anymore. We had a war, they lost. Tough shit.

So now you lose, for one day. Tough shit.

Why is it so difficult to understand the same logic when it applies the other way?
Because the Constitution does not allow the Forest Service, or the Congress to do what has been done. The law needs to be challenged.

I'm amused to see Atheists stumping for free religious expression only because it's not Christianity. Shows just how biased and bigoted they are.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: National Forest off-limits to all but Indians

Post by Jason » Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:46 pm

I find a lot of people have bought into the whole 'noble savage' bullshit hook line and sinker. That's why they show support for the Indians, not because they necessarily support their primitive and backwards spiritualism/animism.

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Re: National Forest off-limits to all but Indians

Post by Tero » Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:54 pm

Savages are doing fine, in the jungle. Noble or not. Its us that's messed up.

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Re: National Forest off-limits to all but Indians

Post by Seth » Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:54 pm

PordFrefect wrote:I find a lot of people have bought into the whole 'noble savage' bullshit hook line and sinker. That's why they show support for the Indians, not because they necessarily support their primitive and backwards spiritualism/animism.
Yup. Just ask the Crow what the Lakota did to them. Savages indeed, and ignoble as hell.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: National Forest off-limits to all but Indians

Post by Jason » Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:57 pm

Tero wrote:Savages are doing fine, in the jungle. Noble or not. Its us that's messed up.
Is this a lead-in to an argument for a return to a primitive way of life and how the advance of civilization has doomed us all? :ask:

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Re: National Forest off-limits to all but Indians

Post by Tero » Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:58 pm

Seth wrote:
Because the Constitution does not allow the Forest Service, or the Congress to do what has been done. The law needs to be challenged.

I'm amused to see Atheists stumping for free religious expression only because it's not Christianity. Shows just how biased and bigoted they are.
And proud of it. Politics is just a disguise for opinions. Formulated to words laws etc.

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Re: National Forest off-limits to all but Indians

Post by Tero » Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:13 pm

PordFrefect wrote:
Tero wrote:Savages are doing fine, in the jungle. Noble or not. Its us that's messed up.
Is this a lead-in to an argument for a return to a primitive way of life and how the advance of civilization has doomed us all? :ask:
Well it has. We pump oil and turn into corn and babies. The last self sustaining economy was the 1700s. Using horses or slaves.

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Re: National Forest off-limits to all but Indians

Post by Beatsong » Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:22 pm

Seth wrote:
Beatsong wrote:
Seth wrote:
Wumbologist wrote:I don't give a shit what they're using it for but I figure, all things considered, the least we can do is let them borrow their land back every now and again.
Why? It's not theirs anymore. We had a war, they lost. Tough shit.

So now you lose, for one day. Tough shit.

Why is it so difficult to understand the same logic when it applies the other way?
Because the Constitution does not allow the Forest Service, or the Congress to do what has been done. The law needs to be challenged.
So what? I'm sure the laws of the Indians didn't allow the white men to do what has been done. We're back where we started: on the question of who can or can't use the park that day, you had a "war". You lost. Tough shit.

You've already told us that reasoning is all that's necessary to justify posession and restriction of land. So you've answered your own question, and there should be no problem.

You're welcome. Glad to have helped.

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Re: National Forest off-limits to all but Indians

Post by Tyrannical » Fri Aug 03, 2012 4:40 am

Seth wrote:
Tyrannical wrote:Ah, federal land us tricky. Indians have no legal right, and by right I mean right, to be on State land except by State law. A State is within it's right to quarantine them within Indian or Federal land. Indians only hold US citizenship and the privallage to vote under federal law.
Er, nope, you're completely wrong. As they are US citizens, they have the same right to be on any state land that any other citizen has.
Indians were excluded from the 14th amendment, and they only have US citizenship under Federal law. It wasn't until the mid 50's that all US States granted them the right to vote. The issue is tricky and complicated though, and no one pays attention to it anymore.
A rational skeptic should be able to discuss and debate anything, no matter how much they may personally disagree with that point of view. Discussing a subject is not agreeing with it, but understanding it.

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Re: National Forest off-limits to all but Indians

Post by Horwood Beer-Master » Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:57 am

Seth wrote:
Wumbologist wrote:I don't give a shit what they're using it for but I figure, all things considered, the least we can do is let them borrow their land back every now and again.
Why? It's not theirs anymore. We had a war, they lost. Tough shit.
Remember that one when the world socialist gubmint comes with tanks to take your land off you.
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