You guys and your guns...

[Rum]

Something occurred to me to ask earlier. Is it legal to carry a spear or perhaps a sword, or perhaps a polarm to protect yourself in the USA? You could save a lot of money and visually advertise the fact that you have the means to inflict harm on those around you if you wished to without all the fuss and safety crap associated with guns. Hell you could fly a rebel flag on the end of a polarm if you wanted to! No amulintion costs either. Plus you get some exercise while defending yourself! Win win!

Do you see much of this sort of thing over there?

You seem to have missed the point about why concealed carry laws only protect concealed weapons.

Not really.

[Blind groper]

Warren

You may note that I already said that a federal law banning hand guns would not immediately stop the problem. However, it would be a start to ameliorating it. When hand guns are not readily available in gun shops, the supply will slowly reduce over a period of years, and the homicide rate with hand guns would slowly diminish.

No law is ever 100% effective, but if it reduces a problem, that is well worth while. Making drunk driving illegal has not totally stopped drunks from driving, but there are a lot fewer than without the law.

Here in NZ, we have strict bans on private citizens with hand guns. That has not totally stopped it, and there is both a black market in hand guns, and a bunch of idiots who make hand guns out of small rifles. However, the number of people carrying hand guns (even criminals) is very, very small, and hand gun murders are very, very rare.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Something occurred to me to ask earlier. Is it legal to carry a spear or perhaps a sword, or perhaps a polarm to protect yourself in the USA? You could save a lot of money and visually advertise the fact that you have the means to inflict harm on those around you if you wished to without all the fuss and safety crap associated with guns. Hell you could fly a rebel flag on the end of a polarm if you wanted to! No amulintion costs either. Plus you get some exercise while defending yourself! Win win!

Do you see much of this sort of thing over there?

Certain of my canes have "extra concealed features." I don't fly with them. As for what's legal, that's up to the individual jurisdiction.

[Warren Dew]

Warren

You may note that I already said that a federal law banning hand guns would not immediately stop the problem. However, it would be a start to ameliorating it. When hand guns are not readily available in gun shops, the supply will slowly reduce over a period of years, and the homicide rate with hand guns would slowly diminish.

No law is ever 100% effective, but if it reduces a problem, that is well worth while. Making drunk driving illegal has not totally stopped drunks from driving, but there are a lot fewer than without the law.

Here in NZ, we have strict bans on private citizens with hand guns. That has not totally stopped it, and there is both a black market in hand guns, and a bunch of idiots who make hand guns out of small rifles. However, the number of people carrying hand guns (even criminals) is very, very small, and hand gun murders are very, very rare.

So what's your excuse for having a murder rate almost twice as high as New Hampshire's?

[Seabass]

You're comparing the U.S. to low violence countries, and excluding comparisons to countries with higher levels of violence. How is that not cherry picking?
.

The comparison is not to low violence nations, but to similarly developed nations with a western culture. The point is that nations similar to the USA but with strong gun control have very low murder rates.

I select the other developed English speaking countries (NZ, Australia, Canada, Britain) plus all the western European nations. I exclude the former Soviet bloc, Africa, central and south America, and Asia, since the cultures are not directly comparable.

If this is cherry picking, it is cherry picking by advanced social culture - not by levels of violence.

The point is that the USA is alone among its peer group in having a level of homicide approaching third world levels. If you look at the graph I posted, and the enormous percentage of those homicides carried out with hand guns, you will see why.

Yes, exactly, cherry picking.

Now tell me, what the fuck do the U.S. and Belgium (or any of the others for that matter) really have in common aside from being "western"? Was Belgium once used by Europe as a dumping ground for slavery? Is African-Belgium culture demoralized and defeated after centuries of segregation and slavery? Do African-Belgian youths resort to joining gangs to "fit in" and escape poverty? Does the Belgium government go after drug trafficking and possession with the intensity and tenacity that ours does? Does Belgium share a two thousand mile border with a third world country with god-knows who or what coming through it? Does Belgium take in twenty percent of the world's immigration? Does Belgium have anywhere near the trouble with gangs that we have--gangs fueled by the drug war, financed by the drug trade, manned by ethnic minorities?

You're trying to compare apples to apples, but it doesn't work. Different countries have different histories and different problems.

I have every reason to believe, when we finally come to our senses and legalize drugs, the violence will rapidly and drastically decrease. So if our goal is to decrease violence, why not do so by increasing liberty rather than restricting it further?

[Seabass]

You'd be shocked to know, Rum, that you could go years at a time here in the States without seeing any sort of weapon. I know that is a shock, given what folks in Yerup seem to think goes on here, but it is true. I have driven to work unarmed every day of my life, and made it safely each time I tried it.

No way. I thought you Merkins usually get in three or four shoot outs by lunchtime?

[Blind groper]

So what's your excuse for having a murder rate almost twice as high as New Hampshire's?

Out of 50 states, there has to be one with the lowest murder rate, which turns out to be New Hampshire with a homicide rate of about 1 per 100,000 people per year. Similar to Australia. Not half that of NZ, which has 1.4.

New Hampshire also has the highest rate of imprisoning ethnic minorities in the USA, so I am not sure that this is something to be proud of. We could all do that - put anyone with the slightest hint of being criminal (ie being of Hispanic or African descent) into prison, and lower the murder rate that way.

New Zealand has substantially more ethnic minority in its population that the USA - round 30%. This includes our indigenous Polynesian people - the Maori - who sadly have the highest criminal offending rate in NZ per capita, and especially including violent offending. Despite our high percentage of ethnic minorities, and due to our strong gun laws, our murder rate is less than a third of the USA.

[Blind groper]

what the fuck do the U.S. and Belgium (or any of the others for that matter) really have in common aside from being "western"?

I have every reason to believe, when we finally come to our senses and legalize drugs, the violence will rapidly and drastically decrease. So if our goal is to decrease violence, why not do so by increasing liberty rather than restricting it further?

If I had chosen one single nation for comparison, your point would be valid. But I have chosen 4 English speaking nations, and every single nation in Western Europe for my comparison.Portugal, France, Spain, Germany, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Italy, Belgium, Netherlands, Switzerland.

Each and every one has a much, much lower murder rate than the USA. Can you not see that there is something wrong? It is not even as if the difference is small. The least difference to the USA is Canada (most strongly influenced by American gun culture???) at 1.7 killings per 100,000 people per year, compared to 4.7 for the USA.

I agree with you on drugs. Legalising them will be sensible. I doubt it will drop the murder rate that much, though. Getting rid of hand guns will be needed to make a big impact on people killing people.

[Warren Dew]

So what's your excuse for having a murder rate almost twice as high as New Hampshire's?

Out of 50 states, there has to be one with the lowest murder rate, which turns out to be New Hampshire with a homicide rate of about 1 per 100,000 people per year. Similar to Australia. Not half that of NZ, which has 1.4.

New Zealand had a murder rate of 1.7 per 100k in 2010, the same year as New Hampshire had a murder rate of 1.0 per 100k, which was my comparison.

Either way, New Zealand still has a higher murder rate. In fact, half a dozen states had lower murder rates than New Zealand in 2010.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder- ... -and-state

New Hampshire also has the highest rate of imprisoning ethnic minorities in the USA, so I am not sure that this is something to be proud of. We could all do that - put anyone with the slightest hint of being criminal (ie being of Hispanic or African descent) into prison, and lower the murder rate that way, if that's really the reason.

New Zealand has substantially more ethnic minority in its population that the USA - round 30%. This includes our indigenous Polynesian people - the Maori - who sadly have the highest criminal offending rate in NZ per capita, and especially including violent offending. Despite our high percentage of ethnic minorities, and due to our strong gun laws, our murder rate is less than a third of the USA.

So your excuse is that you don't put criminals in jail, even though doing so would be more effective in preventing murder than banning guns? Me, I'd rather put the criminals in jail and have the lower murder rate.

[Seabass]

what the fuck do the U.S. and Belgium (or any of the others for that matter) really have in common aside from being "western"?

I have every reason to believe, when we finally come to our senses and legalize drugs, the violence will rapidly and drastically decrease. So if our goal is to decrease violence, why not do so by increasing liberty rather than restricting it further?

If I had chosen one single nation for comparison, your point would be valid. But I have chosen 4 English speaking nations, and every single nation in Western Europe for my comparison.Portugal, France, Spain, Germany, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Italy, Belgium, Netherlands, Switzerland.

Each and every one has a much, much lower murder rate than the USA. Can you not see that there is something wrong? It is not even as if the difference is small. The least difference to the USA is Canada (most strongly influenced by American gun culture???) at 1.7 killings per 100,000 people per year, compared to 4.7 for the USA.

Dude, I said "or any of the others for that matter" for a reason. None of those countries have been affected by slavery the way the U.S. has. None of those governments are as anti drug as ours. None of those countries take in the sheer volume of immigration that ours does. None of those countries share a two thousand mile border with a third world country. None of those countries are situated right next door to the South American drug trade.

I agree with you on drugs. Legalising them will be sensible. I doubt it will drop the murder rate that much, though. Getting rid of hand guns will be needed to make a big impact on people killing people.

Well, that's your opinion. But you seem to be one of those people who thinks Americans are a bunch of gun toting rednecks.

The fact is, the vast majority of gun violence in this country is gang and drug related. Why on earth would these people continue to kill each other if the drug trade suddenly becomes legitimate business?

[JimC]

Seabass wrote:

Dude, I said "or any of the others for that matter" for a reason. None of those countries have been affected by slavery the way the U.S. has. None of those governments are as anti drug as ours. None of those countries take in the sheer volume of immigration that ours does. None of those countries shares a two thousand mile border with a third world country. None of those countries are situated right next door to the South American drug trade.


I agree with you on drugs. Legalising them will be sensible. I doubt it will drop the murder rate that much, though. Getting rid of hand guns will be needed to make a big impact on people killing people.


Well, that's your opinion. But you seem to be one of those people who thinks Americans are a bunch of gun toting rednecks.

The fact is, the vast majority of gun violence in this country is gang and drug related. Why on earth would these people continue to kill each other if the drug trade suddenly becomes legitimate business?

I don't think you are correct in saying "you seem to be one of those people who thinks Americans are a bunch of gun toting rednecks" to Blind Groper, he has taken a very measured tone in this thread...

Mistermack, now, may well be put into that category...

I think that the widespread existence of hand guns, and the relatively loose gun laws on average in America (compared to other countries) must be a major factor in your considerably higher murder rates, but I agree it's not the only factor. I doubt Blind Groper's prescription of tightening gun laws in the states would actually work; if only for the fact that it is politically almost impossible...

You can't always get to A from B...

However, to me, it is a very valid argument for keeping the restrictive gun laws we have in other 1st world countries, particularly with regard to handguns...

[Blind groper]

So your excuse is that you don't put criminals in jail, even though doing so would be more effective in preventing murder than banning guns? Me, I'd rather put the criminals in jail and have the lower murder rate.

The reference I checked showed the level of incarceration in New Hampshire was related far more to ethnicity than criminality.

Yes, in NZ, we do put criminals in prison. That certainly includes murderers. But our low murder rate (1.4, not 1.7) is due to a lack of guns.

[Blind groper]

None of those countries have been affected by slavery the way the U.S. has. None of those governments are as anti drug as ours. None of those countries take in the sheer volume of immigration that ours does. None of those countries share a two thousand mile border with a third world country. None of those countries are situated right next door to the South American drug trade.


The fact is, the vast majority of gun violence in this country is gang and drug related. Why on earth would these people continue to kill each other if the drug trade suddenly becomes legitimate business?

Your first paragraph above suggests several reasons for a higher murder rate, which may even be valid. However, as I pointed out earlier, half of all murders in the US are carried out with hand guns, and other firearms no more than a sixth. The ready access of hand guns, and the gun culture which glorifies the man who kills with the hand gun ( like Hollywood shows Clint Eastwood) is clearly a major reason for the high murder rate. it would be interesting to see if someone has done a study showing what percentage of violent deaths shown on movies and on TV, American made, is with hand guns.

On gangs and drugs.
Do you have a reference showing what percentage of murders are gang and drug related? Nice to say that, but data speaks louder.

[Blind groper]

I don't think you are correct in saying "you seem to be one of those people who thinks Americans are a bunch of gun toting rednecks" to Blind Groper, he has taken a very measured tone in this thread...

Thanks for that support, Jim. I appreciate it.

[Warren Dew]

I think that the widespread existence of hand guns, and the relatively loose gun laws on average in America (compared to other countries) must be a major factor in your considerably higher murder rates

Only because of your imperviousness to the facts. When I choose the U.S. state most similar to New Zealand - New Hampshire, because it's small and mountainous, not to mention it has "New" as the first word of its name - it has a lower murder rate and much freer gun laws.

The facts seem to indicate that New Zealand's stricter gun laws cause its higher murder rate.