You guys and your guns...

[Blind groper]

Actually, the murder rate is not "horrendous" -- it's down to 4.7. Just 1-2 years ago Europe was at 5.4, and Europe took a good drop just in the last two years, for some reason.

I have seen that number before. I believe it originated with the NRA, and is the result of deliberate cherry picking of data. Why? Because it includes Russia and Eastern Europe. The United States is supposed to be an advanced western nation, not a peer of Russia and Eastern Europe.

If you look at the homicide rate of western European countries - the real peers of the USA - the numbers are totally different. The murder rate is closer to 1 per 100,000 per year. So sorry, Coito, but your 5.4 number is totally dishonest - utter and complete crap! The American homicide rate, in a sane and rational country, should also be little more than 1 - not 4.7.

Incidentally, the recent drop in homicide rates is consistent across the entire developed world, and appears to be the result of an aging population. Older and more mature people (more than teenage anyway) tend to be less hung up on guns and violence, and commit fewer murders.

[Coito ergo sum]

Actually, the murder rate is not "horrendous" -- it's down to 4.7. Just 1-2 years ago Europe was at 5.4, and Europe took a good drop just in the last two years, for some reason.

I have seen that number before. I believe it originated with the NRA, and is the result of deliberate cherry picking of data.

No -- it originated with the same organization that did the numbers for the US. Same link as provided above.

Why? Because it includes Russia and Eastern Europe.

Oh, shit. So, we'll just exclude a few places in the US and then make an even comparison, shall we?

The United States is supposed to be an advanced western nation, not a peer of Russia and Easter Europe.

So, only SOME of Europe is to be considered in comparison to a nation of 50 states and 330,000,000 people? Gotcha.

If you look at the homicide rate of western European countries - the real peers of the USA - the numbers are totally different. The murder rate is closer to 1 per 100,000 per year. So sorry, Coito, but your 5.4 number is totally dishonest - utter and complete crap!

It isn't. Your selective suggestion that 7 or 8 secluded, homogeneous countries are "the reel peers of the US" is monumentally dishonest. It ignores the reality that the US has high crime areas and low crime areas, and 50 separate states with their own bodies of criminal law and gun control, and is far more heterogeneous than most European countries.

Incidentally, the recent drop in homicide rates is consistent across the entire developed world, and appears to be the result of an aging population. Older and more mature people (more than teenage anyway) tend to be less hung up on guns and violence, and commit fewer murders.

Yes, and the US rate dropped to. And, yes the aging populations provide the best correlation for reduced violent crimes of all type -- not gun control.

[Blind groper]

the US has high crime areas and low crime areas, and 50 separate states with their own bodies of criminal law and gun control, and is far more heterogeneous than most European countries.

The peers of the USA do not include Russia (homicide rate 12 per 100,000 people per year).
They include my country (homicide rate 1.4), and Australia (1.1), and Britain (1.2), and Canada (1.7), Italy (0.9), Germany (0.8), and Japan (0.3). The highest homicide rate of any country that is otherwise a member of this peer group is Canada. The USA is well clear of their peers with homicide rate of 4.7. You should be asking why? Why is America - an advanced western nation - so far out of step with its peers in terms of murder rate?

All those places have areas of high crime rates. Each of those countries equate to a different American state, with its own laws, and the cultural variation is even greater than in America.

[MrJonno]

Murder rate in New York one of the US safest cities is around 3 times that of London comparable cities, murder rate for Washington a capital city is just embarassing to publish its not quite at the levels in Damascus but not far off

Also welcome to try and find and compare stats for rural parts of the UK where firearms are avaliable but again hard to find anyone to actualy shoot but a few people manage it , obviouslly population density is a major factor in crime rates but that stop having guns present tripling at least the rates of killing

[Seabass]

the US has high crime areas and low crime areas, and 50 separate states with their own bodies of criminal law and gun control, and is far more heterogeneous than most European countries.

The peers of the USA do not include Russia (homicide rate 12 per 100,000 people per year).
They include my country (homicide rate 1.4), and Australia (1.1), and Britain (1.2), and Canada (1.7), Italy (0.9), Germany (0.8), and Japan (0.3). The highest homicide rate of any country that is otherwise a member of this peer group is Canada. The USA is well clear of their peers with homicide rate of 4.7. You should be asking why? Why is America - an advanced western nation - so far out of step with its peers in terms of murder rate?

All those places have areas of high crime rates. Each of those countries equate to a different American state, with its own laws, and the cultural variation is even greater than in America.

Why are we only allowed to compare the U.S. to a small handful of cherry-picked western European countries when there are nearly two hundred countries in the world? Of course the U.S. will come out looking bad if you fix the game.

It's like calling a Lamborghini a bucket because it's not a Ferrari. Why the double standard?

[Wumbologist]

The peers of the USA do not include Russia (homicide rate 12 per 100,000 people per year).

They don't, and at the same time they absolutely do. The US is a 1st world nation with a 2nd world gang problem. While we are in many ways a peer to Western European nations, we also have inner city gangs that are large, well-organized, and well-funded via drug trafficking. From an outsider's perspective, you might see our homicide rate and go "Wow, it must be dangerous to live there". Not really, for the average law-abiding Joe Normal US citizen, the actual, real-world homicide rate is probably comparable to Western Europe. When you factor in the extreme level of violence perpetrated by a small subset of the population, usually on one another, THAT'S when you get the numbers the US is notorious for. States like New Hampshire and Vermont don't have low homicide rates because there's nobody to kill, I've been there, I live within easy driving distance of both, there's plenty enough people for anyone with a homicidal urge. They have low homicide rates because there is little to no gang activity like you get in big American cities. Gang members aren't killing each other over petty squabbles for turf and drugs in VT and NH and that's why their homicide rate is comparable to, if not better than European standards, even with extremely lax gun laws.

[Coito ergo sum]

the US has high crime areas and low crime areas, and 50 separate states with their own bodies of criminal law and gun control, and is far more heterogeneous than most European countries.

The peers of the USA do not include Russia (homicide rate 12 per 100,000 people per year).

LOL -- places in Europe with high homicide rates are excluded from the comparison. I get it.

They include my country (homicide rate 1.4), and Australia (1.1), and Britain (1.2), and Canada (1.7), Italy (0.9), Germany (0.8), and Japan (0.3). The highest homicide rate of any country that is otherwise a member of this peer group is Canada. The USA is well clear of their peers with homicide rate of 4.7. You should be asking why? Why is America - an advanced western nation - so far out of step with its peers in terms of murder rate?

It's not so far out of step. The reason why we have a higher intentional homicide rate is because of the inner cities. Period. Heterogeneity, as I already mentioned. We're a big country -- we're not a blip on the radar like Australia or Canada which have 1/10 of our population. We are more like Europe as a whole, with some areas that aren't so great, and other areas that are awesome. We have states that are .6 and 1.1 and 1.3 as well. It's what I've been telling you. We have lots of places that match your listed countries and we have other places that don't. It's not smooth or homogeneous.

All those places have areas of high crime rates. Each of those countries equate to a different American state, with its own laws, and the cultural variation is even greater than in America.

The cultural variation in Germany or Australia is, you claim, greater than that in the US? Total and complete nonsense.

The point is exactly made, though, that each of those countries equate to a different American state, like Hawaii, Iowa, Maine, Minnesota, Idaho, Colorado, New Hampshire (the Live Free or Die state has a 1.0), North Dakota, Utah, Vermont, Oregon, Wyoming...all have rates in the range you set forth -- around 1 or so. Other states have higher...like some other European countries have higher.

[Coito ergo sum]

The peers of the USA do not include Russia (homicide rate 12 per 100,000 people per year).

They don't, and at the same time they absolutely do. The US is a 1st world nation with a 2nd world gang problem. While we are in many ways a peer to Western European nations, we also have inner city gangs that are large, well-organized, and well-funded via drug trafficking. From an outsider's perspective, you might see our homicide rate and go "Wow, it must be dangerous to live there". Not really, for the average law-abiding Joe Normal US citizen, the actual, real-world homicide rate is probably comparable to Western Europe. When you factor in the extreme level of violence perpetrated by a small subset of the population, usually on one another, THAT'S when you get the numbers the US is notorious for. States like New Hampshire and Vermont don't have low homicide rates because there's nobody to kill, I've been there, I live within easy driving distance of both, there's plenty enough people for anyone with a homicidal urge. They have low homicide rates because there is little to no gang activity like you get in big American cities. Gang members aren't killing each other over petty squabbles for turf and drugs in VT and NH and that's why their homicide rate is comparable to, if not better than European standards, even with extremely lax gun laws.

Nail.
You hit it.

[Blind groper]

Why are we only allowed to compare the U.S. to a small handful of cherry-picked western European countries when there are nearly two hundred countries in the world?

Who do you regard as the peers of the USA?

Do you want to be lumped in with third world nations? I have not 'cherry picked'. The nations I said were the peers of the USA are all western developed nations, which the USA is supposed to be. Japan is perhaps an outlier, but its inclusion is not needed to make the point. I could add France, Spain, Belgium etc. The result is the same.

You can make the USA look good by comparing it to undeveloped nations. But is that the comparison you want for America? Do you want to be seen as part of a group including Mexico, Russia, Eastern Europe, Somaliland, Afghanistan?

To Coito.
You say that the reason you have high homicide rates is because of inner cities. Are you claiming that western advanced nations do not have inner cities, and that is why they have low homicide rates? There is no inner city in London, Paris, Rome, Sydney etc??????

I do not think so. I think you are making excuses, not offering reasons. Sure there are gangs in New York. In my country, we have gangs also. And they are bloody violent! Yet they kill relatively few people. Why? Because there are very few hand guns available to carry hidden on their person. When they get violent, it is with knives or clubs or fists. Most times someone is attacked with those weapons, he will survive. Not with hand guns. A very, very high percentage of attacks with a hand gun result in deaths. In the USA, half of all murders are with hand guns. Get the point?

[Twoflower]

The peers of the USA do not include Russia (homicide rate 12 per 100,000 people per year).

They don't, and at the same time they absolutely do. The US is a 1st world nation with a 2nd world gang problem. While we are in many ways a peer to Western European nations, we also have inner city gangs that are large, well-organized, and well-funded via drug trafficking. From an outsider's perspective, you might see our homicide rate and go "Wow, it must be dangerous to live there". Not really, for the average law-abiding Joe Normal US citizen, the actual, real-world homicide rate is probably comparable to Western Europe. When you factor in the extreme level of violence perpetrated by a small subset of the population, usually on one another, THAT'S when you get the numbers the US is notorious for. States like New Hampshire and Vermont don't have low homicide rates because there's nobody to kill, I've been there, I live within easy driving distance of both, there's plenty enough people for anyone with a homicidal urge. They have low homicide rates because there is little to no gang activity like you get in big American cities. Gang members aren't killing each other over petty squabbles for turf and drugs in VT and NH and that's why their homicide rate is comparable to, if not better than European standards, even with extremely lax gun laws.

[Blind groper]

The cultural variation in Germany or Australia is, you claim, greater than that in the US?

Misunderstanding here.

Not within one of those countries, but between them. The culture of Australia is very different to Germany, or Spain. More different than between Vermont and Montana for example.

I am comparing the 50 states of the USA with the western advanced world, which includes nations like Portugal, Spain, Italy, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Britain etc. All those nations have homicide rates way, way below that of the USA. The major difference I see is gun culture and gun availability. All the western advanced nations apart for the USA have tight gun laws. All have inner city gangs, but apart from American gangs, they kill relatively few people. The big difference is the weapons they carry.

This should give you an idea of how much impact hand guns have on murder in the USA. (From the Wiki article on American gun violence)

[JimC]

law-abiding citizen

No such thing, only people who have broken the laws and havent been caught

Is this the state of the debate in this thread?

Yes, absolutely, couldn't you tell? Anyone who has a want or an alleged need for a gun is a "nut." The argument works back from there.

Only from mistermack, that I can see; others, including myself, have tried to take a balanced approach to exploring this issue. You and others seem to think this is an anti-American thread. It certainly is not, at least from my point of view.

[Seth]

They excluded under-21's, big deal. For all we know, not a single one of their over 21 sample had a carry permit.

Your faith in carry permits is ludicrous.

This from someone who's never had a permit, or a gun.

For a start, to apply for one means you are a gun-nut.

When hoplophobes call me a "gun nut," I smile with wry amusement at the desperate and irrational tone of their bloviations.

Then there's George Zimmeman. Captain of the watch, and permit carrier.
And loony gun nut, kills an innocent child.

"Innocent child" my lily-white ass. Martin was a 17 year old strapping young man who tried to kill Zimmerman and got what he deserved.

If permit holders don't stand more than the 4x chance of dying from gunshot, I'd be surprised and disappointed.
And of course they didn't count the people that these wankers killed. Just the wankers themselves.

So, how many people have the 20 or so million permit holders improperly or illegally killed? Or did you pull that out of your ass as well?

[Wumbologist]

law-abiding citizen

No such thing, only people who have broken the laws and havent been caught

Is this the state of the debate in this thread?

Yes, absolutely, couldn't you tell? Anyone who has a want or an alleged need for a gun is a "nut." The argument works back from there.

Only from mistermack, that I can see; others, including myself, have tried to take a balanced approach to exploring this issue. You and others seem to think this is an anti-American thread. It certainly is not, at least from my point of view.

Yeah, everyone in this thread is nuts. Except for me, I'm the only sane rational person posting here. You can be runner-up though.

[Svartalf]

Wronge, everybody on this thread is nuts, except mistermack who is pure bolts.