Vegetarianism, atheism and morality.

[cogwheel]

Here's a comment I left at a blog post one of my friends linked on facebook:

First, let me say I eat meat. Second, if this makes me a hypocrite, I accept that. Anyway, the entire thesis (which is entirely contained in the final paragraph) can be boiled down to “if you treat them well before you slaughter them, then everything’s peachy.” It completely ignores the ethics of the act of slaughter. I have never once seen a convincing ethical defense of animal slaughter that doesn’t also allow for human cultivation and slaughter.

Unfortunately there is the practical reality that we find ourselves evolved on a planet full of creatures that feed on other creatures. Our physiology and cultures reflect that. The only reasons I eat meat are because it tastes good and I get cramps when I go vegetarian. Mostly the former.

I guess you could call me a regretful omnivore. I honestly value my pleasure and my lack of gastro-intestinal discomfort over the lives of other animals.

It’s either that or I’d have to accept that willing humans should be on store shelves.

I’m not saying you’re wrong, per se, only that you haven’t sufficiently demonstrated your point. You have only tackled the ethics of husbandry. I’d love to hear your thoughts on the ethics of slaughter itself.

This is one instance where I'm fully aware of cognitive dissonance but I can't seem to "do the right thing." It's a somewhat embarrassing character weakness imo.

I can't wait until we can create convincing and tasty artificial meat (not imitation meat).

[Rum]

Here's a comment I left at a blog post one of my friends linked on facebook:

First, let me say I eat meat. Second, if this makes me a hypocrite, I accept that. Anyway, the entire thesis (which is entirely contained in the final paragraph) can be boiled down to “if you treat them well before you slaughter them, then everything’s peachy.” It completely ignores the ethics of the act of slaughter. I have never once seen a convincing ethical defense of animal slaughter that doesn’t also allow for human cultivation and slaughter.

Unfortunately there is the practical reality that we find ourselves evolved on a planet full of creatures that feed on other creatures. Our physiology and cultures reflect that. The only reasons I eat meat are because it tastes good and I get cramps when I go vegetarian. Mostly the former.

I guess you could call me a regretful omnivore. I honestly value my pleasure and my lack of gastro-intestinal discomfort over the lives of other animals.

It’s either that or I’d have to accept that willing humans should be on store shelves.

I’m not saying you’re wrong, per se, only that you haven’t sufficiently demonstrated your point. You have only tackled the ethics of husbandry. I’d love to hear your thoughts on the ethics of slaughter itself.

This is one instance where I'm fully aware of cognitive dissonance but I can't seem to "do the right thing." It's a somewhat embarrassing character weakness imo.

I can't wait until we can create convincing and tasty artificial meat (not imitation meat).

One of the most honest things I have ever read about the issue!

[tattuchu]

I still find myself referring to my eating habits as vegetarian, despite the fact that I'm back to eating flesh nearly every day
I'm a vegetarian in spirit if not in practice.

[Warren Dew]

Here's a comment I left at a blog post one of my friends linked on facebook:

First, let me say I eat meat. Second, if this makes me a hypocrite, I accept that. Anyway, the entire thesis (which is entirely contained in the final paragraph) can be boiled down to “if you treat them well before you slaughter them, then everything’s peachy.” It completely ignores the ethics of the act of slaughter. I have never once seen a convincing ethical defense of animal slaughter that doesn’t also allow for human cultivation and slaughter.

Unfortunately there is the practical reality that we find ourselves evolved on a planet full of creatures that feed on other creatures. Our physiology and cultures reflect that. The only reasons I eat meat are because it tastes good and I get cramps when I go vegetarian. Mostly the former.

I guess you could call me a regretful omnivore. I honestly value my pleasure and my lack of gastro-intestinal discomfort over the lives of other animals.

It’s either that or I’d have to accept that willing humans should be on store shelves.

I’m not saying you’re wrong, per se, only that you haven’t sufficiently demonstrated your point. You have only tackled the ethics of husbandry. I’d love to hear your thoughts on the ethics of slaughter itself.

This is one instance where I'm fully aware of cognitive dissonance but I can't seem to "do the right thing." It's a somewhat embarrassing character weakness imo.

I can't wait until we can create convincing and tasty artificial meat (not imitation meat).

What's wrong with human cultivation and slaughter? If space aliens were attending to our every need, they'd be entirely justified in slaughtering us, in my opinion.

[cogwheel]

What's wrong with human cultivation and slaughter? If space aliens were attending to our every need, they'd be entirely justified in slaughtering us, in my opinion.

Therein lies my hypocrisy.

I want to eat meat, but I completely disagree with your opinion. I don't consider it morally justifiable to kill something that doesn't want to be killed unless it's necessary for your own survival.

Therefore my guilt is proportional to how much I believe the animal I'm eating is capable of wanting to not be slaughtered.

Still doesn't feel right though.

[cogwheel]

The author responded graciously (if unconvincingly). Can't say the same thing about the site owner :\

Pasting here in case it gets modded:

Rob Elliott
Posted July 29, 2012 at 8:52 am

Hi Cogwheel,

Please don’t be a regretful omnivore. Our species is omnivorous – that’s the way it is. So let’s work with that and see if we can’t make a better job of it as our future unfolds. I agree that I’ve hardly touched on the question of ethics, but it was my best shot given only 600 words to work with. I also agree that there is a big ethical question mark over the act of slaughter.

The industrialisation of our food supply system into an interlinked global conglomerate of giant corporations has seen the centralisation of all processes, including the killing of animals. I don’t agree with this, but it is what we are faced with at present. At least we can identify this as one of the things we need to change.

Accepting also that all change is a process, perhaps you can take comfort in the fact that the pendulum is now swinging away from global ideology towards localised economies. Within that context, there is hope that we might one day get back to food production ruled by heart and not by head. By way of illustration, let me tell you about the local butcher whose son I went to school with.

To supply his village shop, he would buy animals from the nearest market and bring them back to the field he owned adjacent to his shop. There the animals would rest for up to a week until they were totally relaxed and, when their time came, they would be kept indoors overnight in the cattle shed, to be despatched quietly and without fuss by a specialist slaughterman. Having watched this process myself, all I can say is that, if one is going to kill animal for food, there is probably no better way of doing it. And it can be done only on a localised basis (and, yes, it is possible to supply the needs of cities on this basis).

I know we are a long way from this ideal, but the truth is we are a long way from everything. Our disconnection from nature is so complete that we have only our angst-driven arguments to steer us through the choppy waters of isolation. But let’s take heart from the evidence that we are at last beginning to wake up. The future, one way or another, will provide answers to all the questions we have dreamed up whilst asleep.

Kimberly Hartke
Posted July 29, 2012 at 10:50 am

Yes, Cogwheel, I feel you have been cowed into submission by the shrill voices of those who judge us for eating a natural, species appropriate diet for the human race.

By and large, these folks know nothing about farming or nutrition (except that factory farming is heinous). If they truly cared about animals, they wouldn’t insist people not eat meat. Livestock would soon go extinct with nobody to tend to them.

Dr. Weston A. Price discovered that animal fat is vital to human health. I believe it is more important that we wrestle with that idea!

Cogwheel
Posted July 29, 2012 at 4:05 pm

Kimberly: My position is simply that we shouldn’t take lives if they don’t want to be taken, except to protect other lives. This really has nothing to do with vegetarianism directly, but it applies to vegetarianism once you consider the capacity of certain animals to have wants.

My guilt is basically in proportion to how “conscious” a given animal is, based on our current understanding. For example, I have no qualms about eating shrimp, but

Your idea that I’ve been “cowed into submission” completely ignores most of what I wrote, and is quite frankly rude. I still eat meat. I accept the nutritional benefits of animal fat (the part about our physiology). If anything, your comment indicates such a deep attachment to your existing belief you’re willing to defend it with ridicule and dismissiveness. I can’t blame you for it, given positions I’ve held in the past, but a little self-reflection goes a long way.

Rob, thanks for the thoughtful response. I honestly wasn’t expecting it, given similar comments I’ve made elsewhere. Sorry for any stirred up drama

Cogwheel
Posted July 29, 2012 at 4:07 pm

Woops… accidentally cut out a line:

My guilt is basically in proportion to how “conscious” a given animal is, based on our current understanding. For example, I have no qualms about eating shrimp, but when you start getting into the higher mammals, I get a bit more hesitant.

[Jason]

I eat meat. I hunt. I do what human beings have done for the past um.. dunno thousands and thousands of years.

If you want to be a vegetarian, cool, but don't foist your choices on me.

[amused]

As long as they first remove the body hair, I'm okay with eating meat.

[Warren Dew]

What's wrong with human cultivation and slaughter? If space aliens were attending to our every need, they'd be entirely justified in slaughtering us, in my opinion.

Therein lies my hypocrisy.

I want to eat meat, but I completely disagree with your opinion. I don't consider it morally justifiable to kill something that doesn't want to be killed unless it's necessary for your own survival.

Therefore my guilt is proportional to how much I believe the animal I'm eating is capable of wanting to not be slaughtered.

Still doesn't feel right though.

What about the wanting to be cultivated part? Given the choice between being bred by space aliens and then slaughtere eventually on the one hand, and on the other hand not being bred by space aliens and never existing at all, I'd prefer the former.

[cogwheel]

What about the wanting to be cultivated part?

I've allowed for that both explicitly and implicitly in what I've written so far. I'm pretty sure I'd even partake, if found in such a situation.