Those who have come from Pz's blog, aka THAT thread

[hadespussercats]

The problems "women" face involve things like consent to sex and rape, hiring/firing/pay disparity based on sex rather than job-related things, and the like, equal access to education, etc. These are things that have been solved.

[citation needed]

In the majority of U.S. metro areas, single women with no children in their 20s outearned their male peers, according to Time's story. In Dallas, for example, a 20-something woman makes $1.18 to a man's $1.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/2 ... 68328.html

"Women 30 and under make more money, on average, than their male counterparts in all but three of the largest cities in the U.S.,"

In a widely read piece in The Atlantic last year, entitled "The End of Men," Hanna Rosin also noted that women now comprise a majority of the workforce and more than half of all managers.

Women dominate today’s colleges and professional schools--for every two men who will receive a B.A. this year, three women will do the same. Of the 15 job categories projected to grow the most in the next decade in the U.S., all but two are occupied primarily by women.

By way of example....

Here are another few choice snippets from that article (emphasis mine):

Forget equality for women, the fairer sex is on pace to outrun men when it comes to making money.

the majority of working wives will out-earn their husbands in the next generation

Women may be outearning men at the beginning of their careers--but that story flips higher up the professional food chain. Some research has shown that there is an 40 percent pay gap between women and men with business school degrees, 10 years out from graduate school. In the end, on average, women still only make 81 cents to the dollar.

Still sounds like an ongoing problem to me.

Sorry-- I'm still getting caught up in the thread. But I love a little hoist with his own petard action.

This is fun!

[Coito ergo sum]

If one reads the articles I cited, one would see that there isn't a discrimination problem left to be solved. The 81 cents on the dollar has a lot to do with women's choices and with stepping in and out of the work force.

[mozg]

Shush, men are arguing about your rights.

Sorry, that's the one thing I'm not good at... shutting up.

Actually you make the point that I've been making for ages but clearly being a man saying it falls on deaf ears.

I don't get much of a reception for it either.

When I bring it up, I'm either ignored, told I'm a gender-traitor, sexist-apologist who sold out so the boys would like me, or I have feminists claim that I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about because my actual life experience is not at all as valid as whatever they were taught in their women's studies class.

Complaining that its someone else's fault that you can't do something when you haven't even fucking tried is so much easier.

And it really wasn't that fucking hard, you know? I had the same expectations put on me as the men that I graduated with, and that was entirely fair.

I never considered, even growing up in rural fucking bible beating hillbilly country America where most other girls had getting married and having lots of babies as their two life goals that science, math and engineering weren't for me. I wasn't pushed in the direction of engineering, I got there because that's where I gravitated.

[Audley Strange]

@CES.

I think you're a bit quick to say "problem solved" more like "extent of problem's effects exaggerated." Other than that I think everyone is basically on the same page. I may be wrong.

Well, I do recall saying that the problem is out the door, or at least being handed its hat. I think that whatever is left of discrimination against women in the West is pretty minor stuff.

In comparison to what's happening to the majority elsewhere I agree.

I don't like to talk about this, but well it's pertinent. I once was part of a crowd outside a mosque in the Male one Friday, I shit you not. The place was mobbed as you would expect but what I did not realise, what I had missed and thankful that I did, was that a lot of the crowd were there to see a young woman who was getting 6 lashes for kissing a boy who wasn't her fiance.

Nah that's not important, what's important is that we all join hands and validate the whining of some fucked up snowflakes can't even handle a critical t-shirt? Nah sorry, unlike that lot, my sense of perspective does not reach vanishing point in my sphincter.

[Wumbologist]

Well, I'm just going by my experience. I've never heard a single person, except Seth, who said anything close to "women who dress sexy are asking to be raped," and even he did not say they were asking to be "raped."

And, I see no evidence that a woman who alleges rape is not taken seriously by police to whom she reports it. But, I'm open to be proven wrong (by something other than mere assertion).

In many cases women end up having to pay out of pocket for the costs of a "rape kit":

http://www.hrw.org/news/2009/05/13/maki ... ictims-pay

Rape is a prevalent issue for women in the military that oftentimes earns nothing more than a slap on the wrist:

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?secti ... id=8651574

Or how about the lovely case of a cheerleader who, after her rapist was allowed to go free, was kicked off the cheerleading squad for refusing to cheer for her rapist by name?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... later.html

These sort of problems do still exist, whether you think they're prevalent enough to warrant action or not.

Well, having some familiarity with sentencing stats, I don't think that is true, but I guess it may depend on what one thinks the appropriate punishment would be and the severity of the crime, I suppose.

And see above once more. The system still isn't getting it quite right.

And, aren't they? Who is telling them they can't be?

I'm considering going into nursing after I get some experience in the prehospital field, and while I have no doubt that it's far more acceptable than it might have been a few decades ago, I've still received comments about it being "more of a woman's field" on a few occasions after bringing it up.

Now we're on to activism to prevent crime and help victims? Sure. But that has zero to do with subtle attitudes and such. We agree on the former, but you can't bootstrap that to mean that the "subtle attitudes" of some people in our culture mean that we still have some big sexism/discrimination against women problem.

It seems that the argument here is mostly a matter of degrees. You are willing to accept that sexism/discrimination against women still exists but believe it is so rare as to not be an issue, whereas my stance is that we have definitely come a long way but I think there is still enough of it to warrant doing something about.

[hadespussercats]

You know, I chose to work in theatre instead of becoming a structural engineer (which was my other interest back then-- these days I'd love to be involved in material science. Another life, perhaps.) Part of the reason was identity politics-- I thought artists were cool and scientists were dry (I was mostly wrong.) But the other part was that I thought I wasn't good enough at math. I got A's in math, even in my senior calculus class. But I had to work a lot harder for those grades than for anything else-- literature or history or social studies or physics or art. I thought that was a sign I wasn't supposed to do that sort of work.

That was stupid. I wish I had someone in my life back then letting me know that was stupid. Instead, it seemed everyone agreed that of course I should pursue the arts.

They weren't necessarily wrong. I'm good at what I do. But I wonder if the fact of my girlhood played into any of that dynamic.

I'm not saying evil men kept me down. I just think these programs that I hear about that encourage young girls to get excited about science and math are a great idea. And I think it might be wise to keep an eye out as a society for ways we subtly push people into so-called gender-appropriate roles. (Shout out to the male engineers who really wanted to be designing dresses for a living!)

[Audley Strange]

Shush, men are arguing about your rights.

Sorry, that's the one thing I'm not good at... shutting up.

Actually you make the point that I've been making for ages but clearly being a man saying it falls on deaf ears.

I don't get much of a reception for it either.

When I bring it up, I'm either ignored, told I'm a gender-traitor, sexist-apologist who sold out so the boys would like me, or I have feminists claim that I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about because my actual life experience is not at all as valid as whatever they were taught in their women's studies class.

Complaining that its someone else's fault that you can't do something when you haven't even fucking tried is so much easier.

And it really wasn't that fucking hard, you know? I had the same expectations put on me as the men that I graduated with, and that was entirely fair.

I never considered, even growing up in rural fucking bible beating hillbilly country America where most other girls had getting married and having lots of babies as their two life goals that science, math and engineering weren't for me. I wasn't pushed in the direction of engineering, I got there because that's where I gravitated.

Yeah that's a question I always pondered, what sort of class is women's studies? When I was still in education sociology meant "left liberal ideologues". I'm assuming it's not lectures by Ron Jeremy, so I'm guessing it's a kind of "Look see, all these women in history that were amazing?! We can do it. But forget all them, they don't count. Men stopped us from doing everything!!! And they killed the blacks!!!" white male bashing fest.

If we weren't so fucking great we might get a complex about it.

[MiM]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... ament.html
This is clearly not the only example that can be found. Just one very recent high-profile one. Wouldn't say "no obstacles" or "problem solved", no... (but maybe France isn't a western civilization ). Of course those morons hurt themselves more in the end, than they hurt her, but that's not the point here.

A better example on rape might be drunk rape. There are lots of guys out there who thinks it's ok to continue all the way, if your date passes out during a drunken cuddle - it isn't.

[MiM]

You know, I chose to work in theatre instead of becoming a structural engineer (which was my other interest back then-- these days I'd love to be involved in material science. Another life, perhaps.) Part of the reason was identity politics-- I thought artists were cool and scientists were dry (I was mostly wrong.) But the other part was that I thought I wasn't good enough at math. I got A's in math, even in my senior calculus class. But I had to work a lot harder for those grades than for anything else-- literature or history or social studies or physics or art. I thought that was a sign I wasn't supposed to do that sort of work.

That was stupid. I wish I had someone in my life back then letting me know that was stupid. Instead, it seemed everyone agreed that of course I should pursue the arts.

They weren't necessarily wrong. I'm good at what I do. But I wonder if the fact of my girlhood played into any of that dynamic.

I'm not saying evil men kept me down. I just think these programs that I hear about that encourage young girls to get excited about science and math are a great idea. And I think it might be wise to keep an eye out as a society for ways we subtly push people into so-called gender-appropriate roles. (Shout out to the male engineers who really wanted to be designing dresses for a living!)

I am very much with you on the general thought here. But given your obvious talent for art, I cannot really blame the people who pushed you in that direction.

[hadespussercats]

Well, I'm just going by my experience. I've never heard a single person, except Seth, who said anything close to "women who dress sexy are asking to be raped," and even he did not say they were asking to be "raped."

And, I see no evidence that a woman who alleges rape is not taken seriously by police to whom she reports it. But, I'm open to be proven wrong (by something other than mere assertion).

In many cases women end up having to pay out of pocket for the costs of a "rape kit":

http://www.hrw.org/news/2009/05/13/maki ... ictims-pay

Rape is a prevalent issue for women in the military that oftentimes earns nothing more than a slap on the wrist:

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?secti ... id=8651574

Or how about the lovely case of a cheerleader who, after her rapist was allowed to go free, was kicked off the cheerleading squad for refusing to cheer for her rapist by name?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... later.html

These sort of problems do still exist, whether you think they're prevalent enough to warrant action or not.

Well, having some familiarity with sentencing stats, I don't think that is true, but I guess it may depend on what one thinks the appropriate punishment would be and the severity of the crime, I suppose.

And see above once more. The system still isn't getting it quite right.

And, aren't they? Who is telling them they can't be?

I'm considering going into nursing after I get some experience in the prehospital field, and while I have no doubt that it's far more acceptable than it might have been a few decades ago, I've still received comments about it being "more of a woman's field" on a few occasions after bringing it up.

Now we're on to activism to prevent crime and help victims? Sure. But that has zero to do with subtle attitudes and such. We agree on the former, but you can't bootstrap that to mean that the "subtle attitudes" of some people in our culture mean that we still have some big sexism/discrimination against women problem.

It seems that the argument here is mostly a matter of degrees. You are willing to accept that sexism/discrimination against women still exists but believe it is so rare as to not be an issue, whereas my stance is that we have definitely come a long way but I think there is still enough of it to warrant doing something about.

Nice post.

I don't think I have the oomph to dive in to the real argument here. I appreciate you all fighting the good fight. (and that means you, too, CES )

[hadespussercats]

You know, I chose to work in theatre instead of becoming a structural engineer (which was my other interest back then-- these days I'd love to be involved in material science. Another life, perhaps.) Part of the reason was identity politics-- I thought artists were cool and scientists were dry (I was mostly wrong.) But the other part was that I thought I wasn't good enough at math. I got A's in math, even in my senior calculus class. But I had to work a lot harder for those grades than for anything else-- literature or history or social studies or physics or art. I thought that was a sign I wasn't supposed to do that sort of work.

That was stupid. I wish I had someone in my life back then letting me know that was stupid. Instead, it seemed everyone agreed that of course I should pursue the arts.

They weren't necessarily wrong. I'm good at what I do. But I wonder if the fact of my girlhood played into any of that dynamic.

I'm not saying evil men kept me down. I just think these programs that I hear about that encourage young girls to get excited about science and math are a great idea. And I think it might be wise to keep an eye out as a society for ways we subtly push people into so-called gender-appropriate roles. (Shout out to the male engineers who really wanted to be designing dresses for a living!)

I am very much with you on the general thought here. But given your obvious talent for art, I cannot really blame the people who pushed you in that direction.

[Cormac]

@ rachelbean

Those who have come from Pz's blog, aka THAT thread

I am here in my own capacity.

And this is Pappa's apology: ...

Thank you for posting that. I had not seen that before but I am most relieved that we are starting to move in the right direction.

/over and out

Sanctimony is one of the many reasons that religions are so sickeningly full of shit.

[Cormac]

What I want to know is, what is the goal? Pappa is not a public figure and rationalia makes no claims to be any kind of beacon for skepticism, so why post the thread at all? Someone that nobody has any knowledge of before said something offensive somewhere on the internet so members of FTB are outraged go demand they apologize while accusing every member of the site of being rape apologists? Where does it end? I am not arguing about the quality of the post, I just don't get why the fuck it's anyone's concern outside of the forum. Are PZ's minions going to rid the world of all people on forums who say hurtful things? Not to mention the fact that there are a lot of sites with legitimately violent and sexist content that is not apologetic or meant to be humorous, so why not spend your time there? It seems like the focus has been on shaming other people in what they see as their community, and alienating a lot of good people in the process. Maybe we should invite Thunderf00t over.

They don't get to declare me into their community. I'd peel my own fingernails off before I'd spend a minute in their company. I don't join groupthink orgies of personality cult ego masturbation.

The reason we founded this community was specifically to get away from that kind of shite on RDF. It looks like it went into overdrive with that lot. Not for me.

[Cormac]

What I want to know is, what is the goal? Pappa is not a public figure and rationalia makes no claims to be any kind of beacon for skepticism, so why post the thread at all? Someone that nobody has any knowledge of before said something offensive somewhere on the internet so members of FTB are outraged go demand they apologize while accusing every member of the site of being rape apologists? Where does it end? I am not arguing about the quality of the post, I just don't get why the fuck it's anyone's concern outside of the forum. Are PZ's minions going to rid the world of all people on forums who say hurtful things? Not to mention the fact that there are a lot of sites with legitimately violent and sexist content that is not apologetic or meant to be humorous, so why not spend your time there? It seems like the focus has been on shaming other people in what they see as their community, and alienating a lot of good people in the process. Maybe we should invite Thunderf00t over.

Oh, and all your questions are spot on.

[Audley Strange]

You know, I chose to work in theatre instead of becoming a structural engineer (which was my other interest back then-- these days I'd love to be involved in material science. Another life, perhaps.) Part of the reason was identity politics-- I thought artists were cool and scientists were dry (I was mostly wrong.) But the other part was that I thought I wasn't good enough at math. I got A's in math, even in my senior calculus class. But I had to work a lot harder for those grades than for anything else-- literature or history or social studies or physics or art. I thought that was a sign I wasn't supposed to do that sort of work.

That was stupid. I wish I had someone in my life back then letting me know that was stupid. Instead, it seemed everyone agreed that of course I should pursue the arts.

They weren't necessarily wrong. I'm good at what I do. But I wonder if the fact of my girlhood played into any of that dynamic.

I'm not saying evil men kept me down. I just think these programs that I hear about that encourage young girls to get excited about science and math are a great idea. And I think it might be wise to keep an eye out as a society for ways we subtly push people into so-called gender-appropriate roles. (Shout out to the male engineers who really wanted to be designing dresses for a living!)

If there is a demand then yes we should be encouraging both sexes into non-trad career choices. If there is a demand. From what I've seen in many cases, there simply is not and yet the programmes go ahead.

I mentioned this before I'm sure, that a College I was affiliated with years ago, reduced the number of male places in a mechanical engineering class to "balance up" the genders. What happened was some girls joined, quit and then after two years of half a class, they didn't get rid of the programme, they shut down the class. Most of the time these things are half assed, ill thought out bullshit and people are actually, ACTUALLY, frightened to question them because to do so leads not to debate but accusations of "gender traitor" or "misogynist", vilification and dismissal.

Business leaders and Politicians have been wooing women for decades. They're invited, no need to hammer the door down, if they don't arrive then we can only assume they are either not interested or being put off.

Whose putting them off in our culture?