Religious gun nut kills Batman moviegoers

[Audley Strange]

Question, per capita is the number of murders by guns in the U.S. higher or lower than other countries with equivalent laws on guns?

If yes then surely it is something wrong with some part of American society that causes so many rather than the fact they have access to guns, no?
If no, then it's just the tool that people use to murder and thus the gun control argument is irrelevant, yes?

Is the gun control issue not just a red herring? Is the real issue much deeper or is there no real issue at all?

Just wondering.

[Wumbologist]

I definitely don't believe the subject of gun control is a black and white one. It's very gray. (for us in the US) As Wumby says, there's room for open discussion and I don't want to be any more entrenched in my position than this one:



Which is scary to me, especially since the ones freaking out are the ones holding the guns.

I don't disagree with the concept of a background check. After all, I don't think guns belong in the hands of certain people, such as violent criminals and the mentally ill. But as reasonable as that may seem to you or me, the greater problem holding up the possibility of taking action to reduce the number of unnecessary deaths while respecting the rights of good, law-abiding citizens, is the "Us vs. Them" mentality that is so commonplace, especially in the US gun debate. Nobody wants to give an inch to "the other side", because they'll try to take a mile. Unfortunately, the gun control lobby does itself no favors in that department as several prominent members of the gun control movement have admitted that they see smaller-scale regulation as stepping stones to an ultimate goal of much more far-reaching bans.

I'm hoping, personally, that the gun control lobby in this country will reflect on the recent string of Supreme Court rulings coming down on the pro-gun side of the aisle, and refocus their efforts. Stop trying to ban certain kinds of extra scary evil bad guns, and instead focus on how we make a positive effort to reduce the number of people hurt and killed in a way that doesn't take away guns from people who haven't done anything wrong. Working out the kinks in the federal background check system that is already in place is one thing that would help. Stricter enforcement of laws regarding unlawful firearm ownership would help as well.

[Wumbologist]

Question, per capita is the number of murders by guns in the U.S. higher or lower than other countries with equivalent laws on guns?

If yes then surely it is something wrong with some part of American society that causes so many rather than the fact they have access to guns, no?
If no, then it's just the tool that people use to murder and thus the gun control argument is irrelevant, yes?

Is the gun control issue not just a red herring? Is the real issue much deeper or is there no real issue at all?

Just wondering.

The closest comparison would be Switzerland. they don't have as many guns per capita in the US but certainly have their fair share in circulation, both under civilian ownership and issued to members of the militia, who are expected to keep a fully automatic rifle in their home during their service. Guns are relatively accessible there, and yet the violent crime rate is significantly lower than the US and indeed lower than much of Europe as well.

[Audley Strange]

Any others? I thought Germany and Canada had similar laws? I'd go check myself but I think the point I make stands even with my laziness.

[Wumbologist]

Any others? I thought Germany and Canada had similar laws? I'd go check myself but I think the point I make stands even with my laziness.

Germany is relatively permissive as European nations go in the realm of gun ownership. Canada is certainly more restrictive than the US, though they can get some cool things there that we can't here. However Canada is again lax in comparison to European standards. Neither one has exorbitant rates of violent crime though, and while the US does have the MOST gun ownership and a high homicide rate, when you throw in data points like Switzerland, Germany, Canada the idea of a direct correlation between gun ownership and violent crime fades quickly.

[Coito ergo sum]

Question, per capita is the number of murders by guns in the U.S. higher or lower than other countries with equivalent laws on guns?

If yes then surely it is something wrong with some part of American society that causes so many rather than the fact they have access to guns, no?
If no, then it's just the tool that people use to murder and thus the gun control argument is irrelevant, yes?

Is the gun control issue not just a red herring? Is the real issue much deeper or is there no real issue at all?

Just wondering.

Well, the interesting thing is to look at the spread of gun violence across the US. It's not smooth. In some places with the strictest gun laws, gun violence is rampant. In some places where gun laws are the least strict, gun violence is very, very low.

Most gun violence occurs where? LA, New York, Miami, Chicago, Detroit, Newark, Camden, etc. Inner cities - gangs -- etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violen ... s_by_state -- Look at the column for homicide rates per 100,000 and the gun homicide rate per hundred thousand. In many of the states with the lowest rates, guns are freely available. States like California are very high in per capital gun violence, but have strict laws. States like North Dakota, South Dakota and Wyoming, Iowa, and all across the midwest have freely available guns and their gun homicides are much lower. Places like Maine, New Hampshire, etc. -- they have lax gun laws and have among the lowest homicide (gun and otherwise) rates in the world.

[Twoflower]

If I remember correctly, I there is a good chance I am wrong, Switzerland allows its people to have guns in the house but not ammo unless they are active duty in the military.

[Ian]

Well, the interesting thing is to look at the spread of gun violence across the US. It's not smooth. In some places with the strictest gun laws, gun violence is rampant. In some places where gun laws are the least strict, gun violence is very, very low.

Most gun violence occurs where? LA, New York, Miami, Chicago, Detroit, Newark, Camden, etc. Inner cities - gangs -- etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violen ... s_by_state -- Look at the column for homicide rates per 100,000 and the gun homicide rate per hundred thousand. In many of the states with the lowest rates, guns are freely available. States like California are very high in per capital gun violence, but have strict laws. States like North Dakota, South Dakota and Wyoming, Iowa, and all across the midwest have freely available guns and their gun homicides are much lower. Places like Maine, New Hampshire, etc. -- they have lax gun laws and have among the lowest homicide (gun and otherwise) rates in the world.

Yes, but not all guns used in crimes are purchased around the block from where the criminals are. NYC mayors have been harping on this issue for a while now - while New York gun control laws are fairly strict, it's also well known that many of the more organized crime elements make road trips to Virginia and elsewhere in order to stock up on weapons and ammo.

[Wumbologist]

If I remember correctly, I there is a good chance I am wrong, Switzerland allows its people to have guns in the house but not ammo unless they are active duty in the military.

I'm not sure on the specifics here, but I believe that if such a restriction is in place it's only come about in recent years, despite the Swiss having no real issues in the realm of violent crime beforehand.

[Twoflower]

Prior to 2007 members of the Swiss Militia were supplied with 50 rounds of ammunition for their military weapon in a sealed ammo box that was regularly audited by the government. This was so that, in the case of an emergency, the militia could respond quickly. However, since 2007 this practice has been discontinued. Only 2,000 specialist militia members (who protect airports and other sites of particular sensitivity) are permitted to keep their military ammunition at home. The rest of the militia can only get their ammunition from their military armory in the event of an emergency.[11]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politi ... ammunition

That's what I was thinking of.

[Coito ergo sum]

Well, the interesting thing is to look at the spread of gun violence across the US. It's not smooth. In some places with the strictest gun laws, gun violence is rampant. In some places where gun laws are the least strict, gun violence is very, very low.

Most gun violence occurs where? LA, New York, Miami, Chicago, Detroit, Newark, Camden, etc. Inner cities - gangs -- etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violen ... s_by_state -- Look at the column for homicide rates per 100,000 and the gun homicide rate per hundred thousand. In many of the states with the lowest rates, guns are freely available. States like California are very high in per capital gun violence, but have strict laws. States like North Dakota, South Dakota and Wyoming, Iowa, and all across the midwest have freely available guns and their gun homicides are much lower. Places like Maine, New Hampshire, etc. -- they have lax gun laws and have among the lowest homicide (gun and otherwise) rates in the world.

Yes, but not all guns used in crimes are purchased around the block from where the criminals are. NYC mayors have been harping on this issue for a while now - while New York gun control laws are fairly strict, it's also well known that many of the more organized crime elements make road trips to Virginia and elsewhere in order to stock up on weapons and ammo.

Sure, but that doesn't explain why people in NYC shoot each other more per capita than people in many other states with lower gun control laws. Surely, Virginia, for example, would have a higher per capita rate because they don't have to make road trips for their guns....

[maiforpeace]

If I remember correctly, I there is a good chance I am wrong, Switzerland allows its people to have guns in the house but not ammo unless they are active duty in the military.

I'm not sure on the specifics here, but I believe that if such a restriction is in place it's only come about in recent years, despite the Swiss having no real issues in the realm of violent crime beforehand.

The gun culture in Switzerland is a totally different animal, and really can't be compared with the US.

From Wiki Gun politics in Switzerland

[edit]Conditions under the 1999 Gun Act
To purchase a firearm in a commercial shop, one needs to have a Waffenerwerbsschein (weapon acquisition permit). A permit allows the purchase of three firearms. Everyone over the age of 18 who is not psychiatrically disabled (such as having had a history of endangering his own life or the lives of others) or identified as posing security problems, and who has a clean criminal record (requires a Criminal Records Bureau check) can request such a permit.
To buy a gun from an individual, no permit is needed, but the seller is expected to establish a reasonable certainty that the purchaser will fulfill the above-mentioned conditions (usually done through a Criminal Records Bureau check). The participants in such a transaction are required to prepare a written contract detailing the identities of both vendor and purchaser, the weapon's type, manufacturer, and serial number. The law requires the written contract to be kept for ten years by the buyer and seller. The seller is also required to see some official ID from the purchaser, for such sales are only allowed to Swiss nationals and foreigners with a valid residence permit, with the exception of those foreigners that come from certain countries (Croatia, Bosnia, Macedonia, Turkey, Sri Lanka, Albania, Algeria), to whom such sales are not allowed even if they do have a residence permit. Foreigners without a residence permit or from countries on the ban list must ask for a special permit.
After turning 18, any individual can buy singleshot or semiautomatic long arms (breech-loading or muzzle-loading) without a permit (so-called "free arms"). Likewise, members of a recognized rifle association do not need a buying permit for purchasing antique repeaters, and hunters do not need one for buying typical hunting rifles.
Basically, the sale of automatic firearms, selective fire weapons and certain accessories such as sound suppressors ("silencers") is forbidden (as is the sale of certain disabled automatic firearms which have been identified as easily restored to fully automatic capability). The purchase of such items is however legal with a special permit issued by cantonal police. The issuance of such a permit requires additional requirements to be met, e.g. the possession of a specific gun locker.
Most types of ammunition are available for commercial sale, including full metal jacket bullet calibres for military-issue weapons; hollow point rounds are only permitted for hunters. Ammunition sales are registered only at the point of sale by recording the buyer's name in a bound book.

[edit]Changes due to the Schengen treaty
The rules laid out above were changed on 1 December 2008 as Switzerland joined the Schengen treaty; and all member countries must adapt some of their laws to a common standard. Following the draft of the Swiss government for the new Waffengesetz (weapons law), these points will change:
Unlawful possession of guns will be punished.
Gun trade among individuals will require a valid weapon acquisition permit. Weapons acquired from an individual in the last ten years (which did not require a weapon acquisition permit) have to be registered. As a central weapons register was politically unfeasible, the authorities hope to get an overview of the market through this registration requirement.
Every gun must be marked with a registered serial number.
Airsoft guns and imitations of real guns will also be governed by the new law.
While the above mentioned "free arms" remain exempt from the weapon acquisition permit, the vendor is required to notify the local arms bureau of the sale.

Buying ammunition
Prior to 2007 members of the Swiss Militia were supplied with 50 rounds of ammunition for their military weapon in a sealed ammo box that was regularly audited by the government. This was so that, in the case of an emergency, the militia could respond quickly. However, since 2007 this practice has been discontinued. Only 2,000 specialist militia members (who protect airports and other sites of particular sensitivity) are permitted to keep their military ammunition at home. The rest of the militia can only get their ammunition from their military armory in the event of an emergency.[11]

[Wumbologist]

The gun culture in Switzerland is a totally different animal, and really can't be compared with the US.

I agree with this to some extent, but that's essentially my point of view on guns in the US anyway. It's the culture, both gun culture and culture in general, not the guns themselves. The cultural origins of violence in the US need to be explored and combated if one hopes to effectively reduce the level of violence in our society.

[Ian]

Well, the interesting thing is to look at the spread of gun violence across the US. It's not smooth. In some places with the strictest gun laws, gun violence is rampant. In some places where gun laws are the least strict, gun violence is very, very low.

Most gun violence occurs where? LA, New York, Miami, Chicago, Detroit, Newark, Camden, etc. Inner cities - gangs -- etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violen ... s_by_state -- Look at the column for homicide rates per 100,000 and the gun homicide rate per hundred thousand. In many of the states with the lowest rates, guns are freely available. States like California are very high in per capital gun violence, but have strict laws. States like North Dakota, South Dakota and Wyoming, Iowa, and all across the midwest have freely available guns and their gun homicides are much lower. Places like Maine, New Hampshire, etc. -- they have lax gun laws and have among the lowest homicide (gun and otherwise) rates in the world.

Yes, but not all guns used in crimes are purchased around the block from where the criminals are. NYC mayors have been harping on this issue for a while now - while New York gun control laws are fairly strict, it's also well known that many of the more organized crime elements make road trips to Virginia and elsewhere in order to stock up on weapons and ammo.

Sure, but that doesn't explain why people in NYC shoot each other more per capita than people in many other states with lower gun control laws. Surely, Virginia, for example, would have a higher per capita rate because they don't have to make road trips for their guns....

That's a question for a sociologist. Gun crime has little to do with proximity to gun dealers, so Virginia would not surely have a per capita higher gun crime rate. Likewise, "NYC" crime statistics can hardly be applied evenly across the city. Many areas are quite safe, but some neighborhoods are definitely no-go zones. Pedantry perhaps, but it ought to be said.

The gun culture in Switzerland is a totally different animal, and really can't be compared with the US.

I agree with this to some extent, but that's essentially my point of view on guns in the US anyway. It's the culture, both gun culture and culture in general, not the guns themselves. The cultural origins of violence in the US need to be explored and combated if one hopes to effectively reduce the level of violence in our society.

The culture of violence is thoroughly rooted in the history and geography of the country rather than some innately higher levels of homicidal mania present in the US. Going back to the Constitution, guns were not only legal for private citizens but necessary for two reasons - the need to call up militia for defense purposes and because the way life was on the frontier. For the next century or so that frontier was still there, and the US remained (and in many places still remains) a very underpopulated place. The old western movie cliches about the nearest sheriff being ninety miles away... that really was the way things were for huge areas of land all over the west. With the reach of the law being inevitably weak, personal defense was something people often had to literally take into their own hands. And over time, guns just became a part of the culture, especially in rural areas. It's not something that can possibly fade away within a generation or so, no matter what crime statistics we hold up and compare to the rest of the developed world. //End train-of-thought.//

[Wumbologist]

The culture of violence is thoroughly rooted in the history and geography of the country rather than some innately higher levels of homicidal mania present in the US Going back to the Constitution, guns were not only legal for private citizens but necessary for two reasons - the need to call up militia for defense purposes and because the way life was on the frontier. For the next century or so that frontier was still there, and the US remained (and in many places still remains) a very underpopulated place. The old western movie cliches about the nearest sheriff being ninety miles away... that really was the way things were for huge areas of land all over the west. With the reach of the law being inevitably weak, personal defense was something people often had to literally take into their own hands. And over time, guns just became a part of the culture, especially in rural areas. It's not something that can possibly fade away within a generation or so, no matter what crime statistics we hold up and compare to the rest of the developed world. //End train-of-thought.//

I think there is more than a little bit of substitution going on. Whereas violence might have once been a part of American culture due to the "frontier" nature of many parts of the country, that violence has been replaced in recent years with violence spawned from such things as the war on drugs, and subcultures that glorify violence as the ultimate display of power and strength. It is worth noting though that in 2010, the US homicide rate dropped to its lowest point since 1963.