Religious gun nut kills Batman moviegoers

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Re: Gunman Shooting at Dark Knight Rises Screening.

Post by maiforpeace » Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:26 am

Warren Dew wrote:
maiforpeace wrote:I highly doubt that there was rule placed anywhere in visible sight that people actually knew about, much less followed, and even if there was, what's the penalty for carrying a concealed weapon into the theatre - getting thrown out of it? Do you honestly want to tell me that a person who is carries a concealed weapon around with them in public would actually check their gun at the door, or go back to their car to lock it up?
Most people with concealed carry licenses are highly responsible, lawful people. They respect the theater owner's right to decide the rules about guns on that owner's private property, and they make it their business to know those rules. So yes, absolutely, I think people who normally carried would normally follow that rule.
:funny:

Yeah, right. Just like Zimmerman, who followed the rules set forth by the Neighborhood Watch organization when he was trained to be one?
Warren Dew wrote:
maiforpeace wrote:So it's still a ridiculous statement in my view.
I'm not arguing that Tyrannical is correct; I'd just prefer that people understand what he's saying before considering his statement ridiculous.
I did say I stood corrected, didn't I? I must say I find this second reminder a little ironic coming from you Warren. 8-)
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Re: Gunman Shooting at Dark Knight Rises Screening.

Post by Warren Dew » Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:40 am

JimC wrote:I was referring to attempted massacres like the current example. Can you give me a documented example where an armed civilian shot a would-be mass killer early in his killing spree, thus saving many lives?
I think my second example seemed likely to turn into a mass murder had the guy not been shot. Obviously I can't prove it, but that's inherent to the question: if an armed civilian intervenes and there's no mass murder, you can't know for sure whether there would have been a mass murder had the intervention not occurred.

That said, concealed carriers, even where legal, are fairly rare, so the chances of someone being there with a gun to stop a mass murderer are fairly slim.

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Re: Gunman Shooting at Dark Knight Rises Screening.

Post by Pappa » Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:46 am

JimC wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:If the shooter knew he would draw heavy return fire, would that have stopped him? Maybe, maybe not, but he was, I suspect, fucking nuts, so counter-fire would not have been an issue. However, criminals often use guns to gain an advantage over their victims. If the victims could shoot back there would be less of an advantage.
Well, if "heavy return fire" was going to happen, it would be in America, not Europe or Australia. In cases I have heard about recently, including this one, there seems to be no evidence of armed civilians returning fire, and preventing a massacre (or at least reducing its extent).

This idea of armed civilians saving lives by using their weapons is one of the main arguments used by proponents of the US gun ownership thing, and yet, broadly speaking, it seems to be a myth...
It is possible that those events are unnewsworthy. Some guy pulls a gun but is quickly shot by a nearby armed citizen.

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Re: Gunman Shooting at Dark Knight Rises Screening.

Post by Atheist-Lite » Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:04 am

Pappa wrote:
JimC wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:If the shooter knew he would draw heavy return fire, would that have stopped him? Maybe, maybe not, but he was, I suspect, fucking nuts, so counter-fire would not have been an issue. However, criminals often use guns to gain an advantage over their victims. If the victims could shoot back there would be less of an advantage.
Well, if "heavy return fire" was going to happen, it would be in America, not Europe or Australia. In cases I have heard about recently, including this one, there seems to be no evidence of armed civilians returning fire, and preventing a massacre (or at least reducing its extent).

This idea of armed civilians saving lives by using their weapons is one of the main arguments used by proponents of the US gun ownership thing, and yet, broadly speaking, it seems to be a myth...
It is possible that those events are unnewsworthy. Some guy pulls a gun but is quickly shot by a nearby armed citizen.
The entire story is unnewsworthy. All this kind of media publicity does is inspire copycats. Worse things happen in Iraq. People die falling off ladders too. :zig:
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Re: Gunman Shooting at Dark Knight Rises Screening.

Post by FBM » Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:08 am

Anecdotes are less informative than stats. That's why people do stats:
Crime and Self-Defense




* Roughly 16,272 murders were committed in the United States during 2008. Of these, about 10,886 or 67% were committed with firearms.[11]



* A 1993 nationwide survey of 4,977 households found that over the previous five years, at least 0.5% of households had members who had used a gun for defense during a situation in which they thought someone "almost certainly would have been killed" if they "had not used a gun for protection." Applied to the U.S. population, this amounts to 162,000 such incidents per year. This figure excludes all "military service, police work, or work as a security guard."[12]



* Based on survey data from the U.S. Department of Justice, roughly 5,340,000 violent crimes were committed in the United States during 2008. These include simple/aggravated assaults, robberies, sexual assaults, rapes, and murders.[13] [14] [15] Of these, about 436,000 or 8% were committed by offenders visibly armed with a gun.[16]



* Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18]



* A 1993 nationwide survey of 4,977 households found that over the previous five years, at least 3.5% of households had members who had used a gun "for self-protection or for the protection of property at home, work, or elsewhere." Applied to the U.S. population, this amounts to 1,029,615 such incidents per year. This figure excludes all "military service, police work, or work as a security guard."[19]



* A 1994 survey conducted by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found that Americans use guns to frighten away intruders who are breaking into their homes about 498,000 times per year.[20]



* A 1982 survey of male felons in 11 state prisons dispersed across the U.S. found:[21]



• 34% had been "scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim"

• 40% had decided not to commit a crime because they "knew or believed that the victim was carrying a gun"

• 69% personally knew other criminals who had been "scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim"[22]



* Click here to see why the following commonly cited statistic does not meet Just Facts' Standards of Credibility: "In homes with guns, the homicide of a household member is almost 3 times more likely to occur than in homes without guns."




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
└ Vulnerability to Violent Crime




* At the current homicide rate, roughly one in every 240 Americans will be murdered.[23]



* A U.S. Justice Department study based on crime data from 1974-1985 found:



• 42% of Americans will be the victim of a completed violent crime (assault, robbery, rape) in the course of their lives

• 83% of Americans will be the victim of an attempted or completed violent crime

• 52% of Americans will be the victim of an attempted or completed violent crime more than once[24]



* A 1997 survey of more than 18,000 prison inmates found that among those serving time for a violent crime, "30% of State offenders and 35% of Federal offenders carried a firearm when committing the crime."[25]
http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp#crime
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Re: Gunman Shooting at Dark Knight Rises Screening.

Post by Rum » Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:15 am

The year before incidentally in the UK there were 757 murders. If you do the sums it works out that the USA had 6 to 7 times more murders be capita than the UK.

The main factor seems to me a no brainer. I won't even use the word..

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Re: Gunman Shooting at Dark Knight Rises Screening.

Post by Atheist-Lite » Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:17 am

Rum wrote:The year before incidentally in the UK there were 757 murders. If you do the sums it works out that the USA had 6 to 7 times more murders be capita than the UK.

The main factor seems to me a no brainer. I won't even use the word..
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Re: Gunman Shooting at Dark Knight Rises Screening.

Post by JimC » Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:18 am

An article by a reporter I like (Simon Mann) in the Melbourne Age...
ANOTHER day in America, and another mass shooting. It's amazing how a 24-year-old wielding an assortment of firearms can in a few senseless moments render impotent the most powerful political office in the world.
And that's basically because such atrocities in the US remain ''protected'' by an archaic 18th century constitutional provision that was essentially a precaution against federal interests hijacking the new republic.
Could America's founding fathers, with their unwieldy muskets and shot and little pouches of gunpowder, have possibly envisaged how their second amendment in the nation's Bill of Rights - that 27-word clause giving Americans ''the right to bear arms'' - could have become the bedrock for laws that made it possible for James Holmes to buy two pistols, a semi-automatic rifle and a shotgun since May?
On Friday, as the world was focusing on the shattered Colorado town of Aurora, Barack Obama demurred on the issue of gun control: ''There are going to be other days for politics … This, I think, is a day for prayer and reflection,'' he told reporters. And yesterday he stuck almost exclusively to words of condolence and sympathy in his weekly radio address from the White House that included the somewhat ambiguous line: ''We will take every step possible to ensure the safety of all our people.''
The pattern of response to such slayings has become all too familiar: overwhelming grief and dismay, then angst and anger and, finally, the promise of tougher gun laws. And then, the predictable push-back by the gun lobby, with its reprising of the old ''guns don't kill people, people kill people'' line and, ultimately, political deadlock.
It happened 13 years ago after Columbine, barely 30 kilometres from the scene of Friday's atrocity; after the 2007 Virginia Tech shootings (America's worst, in which 33 died); and after a deranged young man murdered six people in the car park of a Tucson shopping mall when targeting US congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords.
What seems to outsiders a national blind spot, is a fiercely contested right and in recent years US states have passed more laws relaxing gun controls than they have to tighten them. Meanwhile, courts nationwide are regularly called upon to defy legislators and declare reforms an infringement of Second Amendment rights.
This, despite the widely publicised statistics: every day, 86 people die from guns in America, as tallied by the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, named after the White House press secretary who took a bullet, literally, for the president, Ronald Reagan, 30 years ago. What's more, there have been 50 mass shootings in America in the 18 months since Tucson.
Yesterday, gun supporters were already drawing on the notion that an armed and quick-thinking cinema-goer might have been able to round on the assailant and prevent many of the deaths, which has always been a core justification for ''conceal and carry'' laws in several states, including Colorado. (The release last week of an in-store video of an elderly Florida man pulling a gun on would-be armed robbers in an internet cafe was manna from heaven for the gun lobby.)
A great stumbling block is Americans' faith in their constitution. They just don't like meddling with it.
And no better illustration of the marked differences between Australians and our American cousins is the way in which John Howard, a conservative, was able to forge a political coalition in favour of tougher gun controls in the aftermath of the Port Arthur massacre.
Doubtless, there will be a crescendo calling for tougher laws, as predictable as all the lines in this modern American pantomime, and already some political figures are playing their roles. The former Democratic governor of Pennsylvania, Ed Rendell, for one, hit out at Congress's failure to reauthorise a federal ban on assault weapons, describing it as an ''act of cowardice'', while New York mayor Michael Bloomberg took aim at both Obama and his Republican challenger Mitt Romney.
''Soothing words are nice,'' Bloomberg said. ''But maybe it's time the two people who want to be president of the United States stand up and tell us what they're going to do about it, because this is obviously a problem across the country.''
But Bloomberg's constituency is one of the country's most liberal, and Rendell no longer has political ''skin in the game'', to adapt an American phrase. Memories of election loser Al Gore's advocacy for tighter gun controls still resonate in Washington, and less than four months from polling day neither Obama or Romney will be keen to incite the wrath of the 4-million-member strong National Rifle Association.
Responding to a 2010 court ruling that overturned Chicago's 28-year handgun ban, an NRA executive made clear the association's true target. ''We are drawing a line in the sand against more gun bans,'' he said. ''And we will fight back against politicians who try to ban our guns and ammo.
''Victory is when law-abiding men and women can get up, go out and buy and own a firearm,'' he added.


Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/societ ... z21KjgW5uY
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Re: Gunman Shooting at Dark Knight Rises Screening.

Post by Tyrannical » Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:53 am

maiforpeace wrote:OK, fair enough.

I highly doubt that there was rule placed anywhere in visible sight that people actually knew about, much less followed, and even if there was, what's the penalty for carrying a concealed weapon into the theatre - getting thrown out of it? Do you honestly want to tell me that a person who is carries a concealed weapon around with them in public would actually check their gun at the door, or go back to their car to lock it up?

So it's still a ridiculous statement in my view.
Upon further research, Aurora Colorado doesn't allow concealed carry. So it's only the criminals that have them.
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Re: Religious gun nut kills Batman moviegoers

Post by Tyrannical » Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:03 am

Studying neuroscience because surprise surprise, it was his own mental illness that attracted him to it. Nothing attracts the nut cases like studying nut cases.
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Re: Religious gun nut kills Batman moviegoers

Post by JimC » Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:45 am

Rum wrote:Bought 4 guns and several thousand rounds without anyone noticing.

24 years old.

What a damn waste.
That's the elephant in the room...
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Re: Gunman Shooting at Dark Knight Rises Screening.

Post by Atheist-Lite » Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:54 am

Stealth planes..what is to be expected from a nation obsessed with hidden weapons? :zig:

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Re: Gunman Shooting at Dark Knight Rises Screening.

Post by Elessarina » Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:00 am

I don't understand why people defend these ridiculous gun laws. You went stop determined people like this but what about all the hot headed shootings that happen that wouldn't if people didn't have such easy access to guns?

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Re: Religious gun nut kills Batman moviegoers

Post by Atheist-Lite » Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:09 am

It is all a matter of perspective. Consider all the countless unknown innocent people dead at the hands of American troops around the world? Whilst it easy to say one factor or another you cannot escape the fact ones mans madman is another mans superhero....just what memes came his way. The meme is another very missing part of the puzzle. I am not looking for human culprits in this at all myself. It is more worthwhile to consider the social ideological context? Someone should dig up what his particular church believed in terms of good vs evil, endtimes etc....? :zig:
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Re: Religious gun nut kills Batman moviegoers

Post by Animavore » Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:40 am

Tyrannical wrote:Studying neuroscience because surprise surprise, it was his own mental illness that attracted him to it. Nothing attracts the nut cases like studying nut cases.
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