Intelligence and mitochondria

[MiM]

Another point I would make is that it's not inevitable that life will produce species intelligent enough to use technology. It's true that on Earth, bigger forms of life have become gradually more intelligent. But if you take away man, why would you assume that dolphins, in ten million, or a hundred million years time, would be able to communicate with radio waves?

The fact is that, even here on Earth, humans are complete freaks. There is no inevitability about the increase of intelligence to our own levels. Nobody knows what caused our own dramatic increase in intelligence, but it might be a one-in-a-trillion chance.

Chimpanzees have a common ancestor with humans, going back about 7 million years. And yet they are basically no more intelligent than that ancestor. ( going by the brain-size/body-weight ratio ).
It was only the UPRIGHT apes that showed signs of increased brain size, and that might be for a completely freakish reason.

So there might be millions of life-bearing planets in the Universe, and the intelligence of the animals hit a brick wall, just like Chimpanzees seem to have.

Higher intelligence will not evolve, unless each miniscule increase has a real survival benefit.
We don't know what that was in humans, but it must have been so.

Some birds (parrots, ravens, magpies...) show intelligence features close to that of the apes, e.g. magpies have been shown to pass the mirror test for self recognition, ravens can plan ahead and use tools and so forth. Still the evolution of birds and mammals was parted in a rather early stage, and the organisation of a birds brain is completely different to the mammals. So intelligence (although not human) has developed several times on this planet alone, the same as flight. This shows that intelligence is likely to be driven by evolution.

[Tyrannical]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panspermia

Panspermia, which is the spreading of early basic life through meteorites should be possible at least within a solar system. Solar system to solar system involves far greater distances and times for a dormant organism, but unlikely as it seems it could be possible. The Earth has been hit by many large impacts since life first arose, and in over 4 billion years time who knows what could have spread from the Earth or to the Earth.
Semi-living things like a virus could survive when other things can't, and a virus could in theory contain all kinds of interesting DNA from whatever it infected. Over vast amounts of time and space the vastly improbable is bound to be common.

On the plus side, we'd have nothing an advanced space faring race would want. Raw materials would be most easily mined from asteroids. Manufacturing and food production would be powered by whatever miracle source they are using. Habitation can easily be built with raw materials and technology, and a space faring race can't exactly run out of space. Like in StarWars, Coruscant was a planet wide city with buildings miles high, that could support trillions with all their needs provided through technology.

[mistermack]

Some birds (parrots, ravens, magpies...) show intelligence features close to that of the apes, e.g. magpies have been shown to pass the mirror test for self recognition, ravens can plan ahead and use tools and so forth. Still the evolution of birds and mammals was parted in a rather early stage, and the organisation of a birds brain is completely different to the mammals. So intelligence (although not human) has developed several times on this planet alone, the same as flight. This shows that intelligence is likely to be driven by evolution.

It certainly is. There is no other candidate unless you are religious. And it is a fact that higher animals are generally more intelligent than primitive ones. That doesn't mean that animals will naturally keep getting more and more intelligent. They might, or they might not.
Birds might be as intelligent as they will ever get. Or they might be just starting.

Crocodiles appear to be no more intelligent than their ancestors 150 million years ago, judging by their brain size, and the layout of the brain. They have certainly hit a brick wall, when it comes to intelligence.
I'm just saying that it's possible that there is a brick wall for intelligence for all species, and that humans, by some freak chance, found a way under that boundary.
The expansion of the human brain is certainly a freak event in the animal world, in it's pace and extent.

It's quite possible that that has never happened on any other planet, to any other life-form.

[Blind groper]

To Crumple

We do not need a "suitable" planet. Humans have, over the past few thousand years, been moving from a 'natural' existence to one further and further removed from nature. There are people who live in the high Arctic, who live in centrally heated houses, with a centrally heated garage, and a car with an effective heater, who drive to work and park in a heated garage and go up to a heated office to work. For months they never leave an indoor heated environment. In summer, the reverse applies with air conditioning.

Extend this trend a little and imagine a population living in a totally artificial environment, life long, in space. Why do they need a suitable planet, or a planet at all? Large human populations can live in giant rotating cylinders in space, and use robots to harvest the debris that exists in every star system - asteroids, small moons, comets etc. Billions of people born in those giant cylinders, living there all their lives, and dying there, and raising their kids there.

[mistermack]

To Crumple

We do not need a "suitable" planet. Humans have, over the past few thousand years, been moving from a 'natural' existence to one further and further removed from nature. There are people who live in the high Arctic, who live in centrally heated houses, with a centrally heated garage, and a car with an effective heater, who drive to work and park in a heated garage and go up to a heated office to work. For months they never leave an indoor heated environment. In summer, the reverse applies with air conditioning.

Extend this trend a little and imagine a population living in a totally artificial environment, life long, in space. Why do they need a suitable planet, or a planet at all? Large human populations can live in giant rotating cylinders in space, and use robots to harvest the debris that exists in every star system - asteroids, small moons, comets etc. Billions of people born in those giant cylinders, living there all their lives, and dying there, and raising their kids there.

Sounds nice. So long as I can get a shag and a beer, it would be fine for me.
Also, it would have the advantage that as you get older, you could gradually move towards the center of the cylinder, taking advantage of the lower gravity.
And then, when you die, you can be be deep frozen, and kept in a box outside, with your parents and pets. Or just set on a direct course for the sun, if you feel adventurous.

[Blind groper]

MM

Think of the special sporting events that would held in the centre of the cylinder, where gravity is near enough to zero. Strap on a pair of artificial wings and fly like a bird. Weightless athletics. Or hire a private booth and bonk like a rabid weasel in weightlessness.

Of course, there would be the ground treaders as well. They would also, mostly, live in artificial environments, probably underground. With limitless nuclear fusion energy, they would grow their food under artificial light. Within a few generations, this way of life would be totally 'natural' to them, and anything else virtually unthinkable. I do not think there would, in the end, be any need seen to terraform a planet. I see this as the pattern for the colonisation of Mars. With enough energy, and thick layers of thermal insulation on the cave walls, even the moons of Jupiter and Saturn could be colonised like this.

[mistermack]

MM

Think of the special sporting events that would held in the centre of the cylinder, where gravity is near enough to zero. Strap on a pair of artificial wings and fly like a bird. Weightless athletics. Or hire a private booth and bonk like a rabid weasel in weightlessness.

Of course, there would be the ground treaders as well. They would also, mostly, live in artificial environments, probably underground. With limitless nuclear fusion energy, they would grow their food under artificial light. Within a few generations, this way of life would be totally 'natural' to them, and anything else virtually unthinkable. I do not think there would, in the end, be any need seen to terraform a planet. I see this as the pattern for the colonisation of Mars. With enough energy, and thick layers of thermal insulation on the cave walls, even the moons of Jupiter and Saturn could be colonised like this.

I still think the giant space-station would be preferable to Mars, or those moons. The reason being that lower gravity of Mars would gradually degrade your muscle and bone, and have a serious effect on the growth of children.
They would be great retirement places though, but no better than the inner part of a rotating space station. Maybe the main use of Mars and the Moon will end up as mining, and food production, for foods that need a bit of gravity to grow.
The best bit about space is that you can grow food in one place, and freeze it for nothing, and transport it for peanuts. I wonder what space-type temperatures do to the taste of frozen food?

[Blind groper]

Fair enough.

I have the feeling, though, that by the time we colonise Mars big time, we will have the medical technology to overcome most of those problems. Perhaps Mars colonists will be genetically modified to cope with the conditions.

I agree with you on the space habitat being preferable, though. Mainly due to the opportunities given by such mobility. The habitat could travel to any resource in space, whether asteroid, rings of Saturn, Oort Cloud object, or even a slow voyage to another star system.

[Jason]

Going into cryogenic freezer - wake me when we have achieved FTL travel.w

[mistermack]

Going into cryogenic freezer - wake me when we have achieved FTL travel.w

We have. They first managed it in 2053, and used it for time travel.
I remember reading about it in a history lesson.
I'm not supposed to say, though.

[JimC]

Going into cryogenic freezer - wake me when we have achieved FTL travel.w

We have. They first managed it in 2053, and used it for time travel.
I remember reading about it in a history lesson.
I'm not supposed to say, though.

[Woodbutcher]

Living in outer space would be entirely too artificial for me. Even in extreme environments you experience the extremes; in outer space you cannot escape outside. I prefer to see and feel the nature and interact with the animals and plants. I'm staying.

[Blind groper]

You got no choice, Woodbutcher. No one can go live in space before the space cities are built.

However, humans are very adaptable. I have no doubt that a generation born in a space city would be entirely happy living there. Just like a person who lives in New York is happy there, preposterous though this might seem to the rest of us.

[Woodbutcher]

Sure enuff! Imagine not being able to get dirty.

[Animavore]

Re: Birds and reptiles - they likely are as intelligent as they'll ever be unless they start live birthing. Those little eggs just don't hold the energy needed to sustaing the growth of larger brains. Human babies use up a shit-load of energy compared to other mammals.