US Prez Election 2012 Thread - Opinions and Discussions

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Re: US Prez Election 2012 Thread - Opinions and Discussions

Post by Coito ergo sum » Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:48 pm

Ian wrote:
maiforpeace wrote:Kind of aside but...

Despite being a registered Democrat I was solicited numerous times by local Republicans in the recent election, and just now Mitt Romney's campaign with a recorded phone message. What the fuck, do they think I'm going to suddenly start voting Republican? What are the chances of that happening?
I get those sometimes too. Some of the mailings have been most interesting. Campaign solicitation via outright fearmongering. I'm sure Democratic direct-mail campaigns are annoying too (though none of the ones showing up in my mailbox have been especially bad), but nobody does fear like conservatives. :tup:
There are a lot of conservative democrats too.

How about those ads like "When Mitt did that.......he made me sick...." uttered by the Parkinsons-esque quivering old woman claiming Mitt personally made her ill by killing her job.... or, the fear mongering about social security and medicare, and throwing grannie off a cliff.... My whole life, Democrats were fear mongering about how Republicans wanted nuclear war.

"I think the Democrats are going to have to be willing to give up, maybe, some short-term political gain by whipping up fears on some of these things — if it’s a reasonable Social Security proposal, a reasonable Medicare proposal. We’ve got to deal with these things. You cannot have health care devour the economy." - B. Clinton.

That isn't to say Republicans don't do it. But, I think the only way one can come to the conclusion that one is more innocent than the other is to have blinders on as to one side or the other.

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Re: US Prez Election 2012 Thread - Opinions and Discussions

Post by Clinton Huxley » Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:58 pm

Article in the Grauniad today opining that the Republicans are deliberately damaging the US economy as they just want to get rid of Obama more than anything else and are prepared to do anything to achieve that. Conspiracy or truth?
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Re: US Prez Election 2012 Thread - Opinions and Discussions

Post by Coito ergo sum » Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:00 pm

Robert_S wrote:
Drewish wrote:
trdsf wrote:
Warren Dew wrote:Romney is pushing his health care plan. Basically it prevents insurers from avoiding their obligations by using the "preexisting conditions" excuse, but otherwise relies on the free market - exactly what's needed.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/ ... story.html
A free market solution is only a solution if you consider basic health care to be a privilege rather than a human right. In other words, it's really no solution at all, and just a way for companies to cherry-pick the customers who will cost them the least and fob off everyone else on already-overwhelmed public services.

Why not just make Medicare universal? When you both bring to bear the massive purchasing power of the US Government, and take the profit motive out of medical decision-making, then you have something that actually resembles a solution.
That's not true if you think the most efficient means of distributing health care is done via market system. If substandard universal care ends up with worse over all health outcomes then it's hardly better, even if universal. Ultimately you can not (or rather should not) define the standards of comparison by health care coverage, but instead by health outcomes.
And overall economic outcomes as well. We should also be looking at things like whether people being forced to choose between healthcare and college for their kids.
Life is full of choices, but with the availability of healthcare coverage in the US, this problem you identify doesn't really exist. Healthcare for college students is dirt cheap. How much cheaper can you get than these prices? http://www.goldenrule.com/ppc/health-in ... 7AodlxjZag $50 a month? $22 a month? And most colleges, like UNC for example, http://campushealth.unc.edu/charges-and ... vices.html have healthcare services on campus, which are paid for with required fees that are part of the tuition.

College students who can't afford tuition have lots of grants to choose from (not the whole thing, usually) and then the balance can be paid for with summer jobs and part time jobs, and also student loans. If a student chooses a school wisely, they can go get a good college education and come out with no loans or manageable loans.

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Re: US Prez Election 2012 Thread - Opinions and Discussions

Post by Tyrannical » Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:03 pm

Clinton Huxley wrote:Article in the Grauniad today opining that the Republicans are deliberately damaging the US economy as they just want to get rid of Obama more than anything else and are prepared to do anything to achieve that. Conspiracy or truth?
Conspiracy, those types of accusations are common in election cycles.
A rational skeptic should be able to discuss and debate anything, no matter how much they may personally disagree with that point of view. Discussing a subject is not agreeing with it, but understanding it.

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Re: US Prez Election 2012 Thread - Opinions and Discussions

Post by Coito ergo sum » Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:04 pm

Clinton Huxley wrote:Article in the Grauniad today opining that the Republicans are deliberately damaging the US economy as they just want to get rid of Obama more than anything else and are prepared to do anything to achieve that. Conspiracy or truth?
Well, what's the basis for them saying that?

How are they deliberately damaging the US economy?

Let's remember -- we have a Democratic Executive Branch, and a Democratic Senate. The House is majority Republican. So, what have they done, besides oppose policies that they think are wrong for the country, that is deliberately damaging the economy? Does the article suggest that the Republicans agree with the Democratic legislative agenda on the economy, but are opposing it in order to harm the economy?

That is quite an indictment. Let's hear the evidence.

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Re: US Prez Election 2012 Thread - Opinions and Discussions

Post by Coito ergo sum » Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:09 pm

Tyrannical wrote:
Clinton Huxley wrote:Article in the Grauniad today opining that the Republicans are deliberately damaging the US economy as they just want to get rid of Obama more than anything else and are prepared to do anything to achieve that. Conspiracy or truth?
Conspiracy, those types of accusations are common in election cycles.
Can't be a conspiracy...Democrats don't fear monger....

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Republicans: They Will Destroy the Economy for Short Term Political Gain.

Be Afraid. Be VERY Afraid.

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Re: US Prez Election 2012 Thread - Opinions and Discussions

Post by maiforpeace » Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:15 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
Clinton Huxley wrote:Article in the Grauniad today opining that the Republicans are deliberately damaging the US economy as they just want to get rid of Obama more than anything else and are prepared to do anything to achieve that. Conspiracy or truth?
Well, what's the basis for them saying that?

How are they deliberately damaging the US economy?

Let's remember -- we have a Democratic Executive Branch, and a Democratic Senate. The House is majority Republican. So, what have they done, besides oppose policies that they think are wrong for the country, that is deliberately damaging the economy? Does the article suggest that the Republicans agree with the Democratic legislative agenda on the economy, but are opposing it in order to harm the economy?

That is quite an indictment. Let's hear the evidence.
Did Republicans deliberately crash the US economy?

Have at it CES.
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Re: US Prez Election 2012 Thread - Opinions and Discussions

Post by Tero » Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:28 pm

Huxley, gubment is an illusion. The Illuminati run things. Polish up your freemason ring. ;)

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Re: US Prez Election 2012 Thread - Opinions and Discussions

Post by Coito ergo sum » Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:04 pm

Do we agree, now, that job growth sucks and so does the economy? Up until this article, the pro-Obama folks have been telling us that things have been getting better. Look at Ian's posts on the subject, and listen to the President. Were 4.6 million jobs created? Is the private sector doing fine?

According to the Guardian, nope. Now, the economy sucks.

The "evidence" --

Republicans have opposed a lion's share of stimulus measures that once they supported, such as a payroll tax break, which they grudgingly embraced earlier this year ---- LOL -- Exhibit A is the payroll tax cut. This is evidence the Republicans are destroying the economy on purpose. But....they voted it in. So, what's the argument? That the Republicans, because they resisted it at first, but later caved in and gave the Democrats what they wanted, are "destroying the economy?" That must be what the article is saying.

Next item -- Even unemployment insurance, a relatively uncontroversial tool for helping those in an economic downturn, has been consistently held up by Republicans or used as a bargaining chip for more tax cuts. ---- LOL -- the article ought to mention that all the unemployment insurance extensions were ultimately passed. Further, "bargaining for more tax cuts" is bad in this instance? See the previous paragraph where the payroll tax cut is offered as something designed to help the economy.

So, the first two items listed are items which the Republicans did not prevent from going through. Next!

Third items --- "Ten years ago, prominent conservatives were loudly making the case for fiscal stimulus to get the economy going; today, they treat such ideas like they're the plague." 10 years ago? In 2002? Bullshit. What is this nonsense? And, has there been a "fiscal stimulus" policy advanced recently by the Democrats? What have they suggested which has been blocked? Anything?

Fourth item -- Republicans have made practically no effort to draft comprehensive job creation legislation. --- However, the Republican led House has passed more than two dozen jobs bills in 2011 and 2012. They are ALL bottled up by Harry Reid in the Democrat controlled Senate. So --- who is "purposefully trying to destroy the economy?" Is opposition to the Republican bills "principled opposition," and Republican opposition to Democratic measures "purposeful destruction?"
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/ ... B320120224

Next item -- the Republicans support extending the Bush tax cuts. LOL, which the Guardian posits hurt the economy. They think that raising taxes across the board will help the economy, and Republican efforts to extend the Bush tax cuts hurt the economy. So, Bill Clinton supports hurting the economy, I guess: http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jun/05 ... s-20120605 -- no room is provided in the article that extending the tax cuts would help the economy. But, at the same time -- see item one above -- where payroll tax cuts are offered as a means of helping the economy. So, tax cuts proposed by Democrats = good, and tax cuts proposed by Republicans = bad.

Fabulous argument.

Then there are gems like -- "These cuts have a larger societal impact. When teachers are laid off, for example (and nearly 200,000 have lost their jobs)," -- Yet, federal tax dollars are a drop in the ocean of school funding. The vast majority of school funding, including teacher salaries, are paid for by property taxes, State income taxes, State sales taxes, and the like. Letting the Bush tax cuts expire would do nothing for the laid off teachers. The Guardian, apparently, doesn't need to think too deeply about these things. Tax cuts occurred, teachers got laid off, therefore, tax cuts laid off the teachers.

One big falsehood expounded by this article is that the US has gone the route of austerity. The US didn't. And, in many folks opinions, that's the reason we haven't rebounded better. See this article: http://www.investopedia.com/financial-e ... z1xgIfqnaH To suggest that the US has been "austere" while running deficits of $1.3 Trillion dollars and up every year is laughable. What ought to have been spent in excess of revenues? $2 trillion a year? That would be "responsible?"

The article then suggests that Republican attempts to resist the constant raising of the debt limit was responsible for a reduction in consumer confidence. Frankly, to many of us, resistance to knee-jerk, unquestioning raising of the debt limit is an indication of responsibility. Why should the debt limit just be raised without question? What is the debt limit for, if not to limit debt?

The article discusses the fact that the Senate did not vote the President's jobs bill in. Well, several Democrats voted against that bill too -- one of them was Harry Reid (Senate Majority Leader).

Towards the end, the article states that the measure proposed by the Democrats would "clearly" help the economy, and that the Republicans must either be purposefully hurting the economy, or they are just fiscally incompetent. LOL -- that's right -- the argument boils down to that. We start with the proposition which is inarguable -- that the Democrats want to help the economy, and what they are doing is "clearly" going to do that. Thus, if Republicans oppose the Democrats, then they are either evil, or stupid. There isn't room to argue that the Democrat wild tax-and-spend policies are bad for the country. It's just not an option. We all know that if the Democrats call for a tax cut -- they do so for valid fiscal reasons. If the Republicans do so, it's not.

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Re: US Prez Election 2012 Thread - Opinions and Discussions

Post by Clinton Huxley » Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:28 pm

THanks to Mai for finding the link.

I knew CES wouild enjoy it :)

My take is that I wouldn't be at all surprised if a political party put its own narrow interests ahead of the interests of the country it sought to govern, either in the US or in Blighty. I'd entirely expect it.
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Re: US Prez Election 2012 Thread - Opinions and Discussions

Post by Ian » Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:54 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:That isn't to say Republicans don't do it. But, I think the only way one can come to the conclusion that one is more innocent than the other is to have blinders on as to one side or the other.
Logical fallacy: false balance.
"Both sides do this sort of stuff, therefore both must be just as bad as the other. Let's call it a push." Nope, nope, nope. Democrats do make their own cheap shots and strawman claims which evoke suspicion of the other side, but the Republicans are worse, period. Drumming up fear tends to be their go-to campaign strategy, and why? Because they know it's effective, especially in terms on turning out their own kind to the polls:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the ... tudy-finds
http://www.livescience.com/18132-intell ... acism.html
http://www.psmag.com/politics/fear-moti ... als-39283/
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/ ... ngering-h/

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Re: US Prez Election 2012 Thread - Opinions and Discussions

Post by Coito ergo sum » Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:34 pm

Ian wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:That isn't to say Republicans don't do it. But, I think the only way one can come to the conclusion that one is more innocent than the other is to have blinders on as to one side or the other.
Logical fallacy: false balance.
"Both sides do this sort of stuff, therefore both must be just as bad as the other. Let's call it a push." Nope, nope, nope. Democrats do make their own cheap shots and strawman claims which evoke suspicion of the other side, but the Republicans are worse, period. Drumming up fear tends to be their go-to campaign strategy, and why? Because they know it's effective, especially in terms on turning out their own kind to the polls:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the ... tudy-finds
http://www.livescience.com/18132-intell ... acism.html
http://www.psmag.com/politics/fear-moti ... als-39283/
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/ ... ngering-h/

I don't see a shortage of fear mongering on the part of Democrats - I gave several examples before. Democrats are always about fear -- every election - it's why you have them promising to move out of the US if the Republicans win. They spread the notion that things will come crashing down if the Republicans win --- "labor will be destroyed" the teachers will be put out of work, old people will be refused Medicare and Social Security -- the Republicans WANT the economy to be bad -- and you can say that the Democrats don't fear monger?

Of course we can argue about who does it more. But, your perception of who does it worse is, you must admit, colored by your bias (as is mine). So, without any real data as to who does it more - and we don't have actual data - we can't say who does it more.

Please explain how the Wired article about conservatives being more likely to be "shocked by sudden threats" means that Republican engage in "fear mongering" more? The study involved sudden noises and disturbing imagery, and measurements of subject reactions. Conservatives had more anxiety toward them, according to the study. How that demonstrates that Republicans are more apt to use fear mongering in their campaigns is something you'll need to explain. The psmag.com link is to an article about the same study.

The LiveScience article is about racism, so it's not even in the same ballpark.

And, the Psychology Today article is about a London, England study of British conservatives. We all know, as we have been told in other threads, that a British conservative is very liberal when compared to Americans -- almost leftist and socialist, by comparison to even the Democratic Party in the US. So, the study shows that British conservatives have larger Amygdalas than British liberals, which necessarily means that American liberal amygdalas are even larger than British conservative amygdalas. American conservative amygdalas would necessarily be even bigger than that.... LOL

Let's look at the actual fear mongering:

Reagan was going to blow up the world - be afraid, be very afraid.
the Republicans wanted to take away your Social Security and Medicare
The Republicans will round up Mexicans and other fear mongering about the Arizona immigration law
Fear of guns
Constant environmental fear mongering, like Al Gore's repeated nonsense and various claims of the sky falling
Spreading fear of nuclear power
Spreading fear of oil companies
Fear of Halliburton, Carlysle Group, "...oh, my!"
Mitt Romney will "make you sick..."
Listen to this fucker: "The end of the USA just happened...." and "Democracy died tonight..." because they lost a free and fair democratic election -- what sort of "fear" is being expressed there? Isn't he "fear mongering?" http://urbangrounds.com/2012/06/democracy-died-tonight/ That is an example of what I hear election after election from Democrats -- if they don't win, it's not democracy and the sky is falling.
Listen to Joe Biden: “What else will we be revisiting if there’s a Romney presidency and a Republican Congress?” he asked. “Who do you think they’ll put on the Supreme Court? What do you think will happen to your grandparents’ Medicare and Medicaid? How about children and pre-existing conditions, what do you think will happen to them?” Be afraid -- cuz if the 'publicans get elected, your grandparents' medicare will be gone and nobody will care about the children.

Good summary --- http://www.carrollcountytimes.com/news/ ... 03286.html

Note also that the Guardian article lambasted Republicans for opposing tax increases. That's because they want to hurt the economy. Yet, on Aug. 5, 2009, Obama said, "The last thing you want to do is raise taxes in the middle of a recession, because that would just suck up, take more demand out of the economy and put businesses in a further hole." So, the concept of not raising taxes when the economy is hurting is not alien to Democrats. It's basic economics. Making things cost more means you generally get less of it. But, of course, the GOP is purposefully looking to destroy the economy when they suggest it would be a bad idea to raise taxes. And, when Democrats say that the GOP purposefully wants to destroy the economy, they aren't fear mongering. Nice.

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Re: US Prez Election 2012 Thread - Opinions and Discussions

Post by Clinton Huxley » Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:40 pm

Absolutely typical, a republican fear-mongering about the fear-mongering of democrats.
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Re: US Prez Election 2012 Thread - Opinions and Discussions

Post by Tyrannical » Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:44 pm

I wonder who really calls the shots in the Obama administration. It's not Obama because lets face it, he makes GW look like a genius.
A rational skeptic should be able to discuss and debate anything, no matter how much they may personally disagree with that point of view. Discussing a subject is not agreeing with it, but understanding it.

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Re: US Prez Election 2012 Thread - Opinions and Discussions

Post by Coito ergo sum » Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:45 pm

Clinton Huxley wrote:Absolutely typical, a republican fear-mongering about the fear-mongering of democrats.
But, you are fear mongering about a republican fear mongering about the fear mongering of democrats.

You, sir, are a monger.

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