Lets have a global "one child" policy

[Robert_S]

Personally, I find the idea of forcible human population control very distasteful, but less distasteful than ecological collapse, widespread disease, mass starvation and the like.

I don't know why I bother. The name of this forum is rationalia, but rationality is just as scarce here as anywhere else.

Let me repeat. There is no bloody population explosion. There is no ecological collapse, widespread disease or mass starvation due to overpopulation. That is a myth.

Reality is slowing population growth, which will stop and then go into decline by 2100 at around 10 billion. Read the bloody United Nations reference I posted! We can comfortably feed 10 billion people. We will have massively increased technological capabilities by 2100, and if we cannot avoid ecological collapse and mass disease by then, there is something very badly wrong, and it is not overpopulation.

I was not talking about the actual state of affairs, but the ethical issues and principles concerning possible states of affairs.

Nonetheless, do those statistics reflect what might happen if the climate changes massively or the a great percentage of the topsoil gets depleted?

[Tyrannical]

Personally, I find the idea of forcible human population control very distasteful, but less distasteful than ecological collapse, widespread disease, mass starvation and the like.

I don't know why I bother. The name of this forum is rationalia, but rationality is just as scarce here as anywhere else.

Let me repeat. There is no bloody population explosion. There is no ecological collapse, widespread disease or mass starvation due to overpopulation. That is a myth.

Reality is slowing population growth, which will stop and then go into decline by 2100 at around 10 billion. Read the bloody United Nations reference I posted! We can comfortably feed 10 billion people. We will have massively increased technological capabilities by 2100, and if we cannot avoid ecological collapse and mass disease by then, there is something very badly wrong, and it is not overpopulation.

You keep using the word "we", and "we" don't have to do anything because "we" don't have a problem. "They" must recognize "they" have a problem, and "they"must desire to fix it. It's like comparing apples to oranges to assume that since one group behaves a certain way, all groups will.

[hadespussercats]

A mysterious disease that progressively destroys womens' fertility after each childbirth would be the most painless way.

It's called aging. And it's quite effective.

I think he was hoping for something directly related to number of births, rather than to aging. Relying on aging encourages early childbirth, which may not be what one wants to encourage for population control purposes.

And I'm no longer so sure about the "progressive" part of aging, either. Elizabeth needed an IVF to get pregnant at 37, but got pregnant naturally this time at 41, which should have been much more difficult by age. I now think the progressive loss of fertility is mostly attributable to progressive damage from a modern agricultural diet, which is something we fixed a few years ago.

I've heard that getting pregnant actually improves fertility, so... Yeah, you've got a point. (I've heard many accounts of people who needed intervention for the first, but got pregnant without help for successive ones.)

But as some people in the thread have pointed out, there's a connection between educated women in the populace and a lower birth rate. Part of that is that women wait until they've finished schooling/started a career before having kids, and generally, if you're older when you start, you won't have/be able to have as many kids as someone who starts young.

[Blind groper]

"we" don't have to do anything because "we" don't have a problem.

Part of my definition of being more civilised is to have a feeling for other people, and a desire to help them.

According to my personal definition, those people who are insular and avoid taking responsibility for those elsewhere in need, are uncivilised - indeed barbaric.

[hadespussercats]

Andrew, aren't you the same one who got all mad when I posted the clip of the Blues Brothers movie where Jake and Elwood ran the US Neo-Nazis off the bridge?

Yeah. People killing themselves I have no issue with. People expressing hatred towards each other I have no problem with. People being violent against each other I have a problem with. People using threats of violence against each other I have a problem with. It's a very clear distinction to me, but probably appears hypocritical to individuals who see hatred, threats, and violence all as one thing.

So, you see the depiction of Jake and Elwood using a cartoonish bit of violence against those spreading the Nazi ideology as more or less offensive than spreading that ideology which has led to very real violence and genocide within living memory at the time of the film's production? Actually, the violence from Neo-Nazi groups still persists to this day.

Personally, I find the idea of forcible human population control very distasteful, but less distasteful than ecological collapse, widespread disease, mass starvation and the like. We do the same for animals when we've knocked off their predators and they're in danger of mass suffering by culling the adults. Should I kill myself for allowing for the possibility that maybe the right for a couple to have that extra child might not be as sacrosanct as the right for everyone else to not have to deal with disease, starvation and so on.

Well, I don't claim a horse in this race yet, but as a point to consider-- are you worth more than that "extra" child? You were someone's extra child once.

[Tyrannical]

But as some people in the thread have pointed out, there's a connection between educated women in the populace and a lower birth rate

I'd say it is the need for women to enter the work force, and the social acceptability of that. Education can help employment, but I don't think merely being educated lowers fertility rates.

[hadespussercats]

But as some people in the thread have pointed out, there's a connection between educated women in the populace and a lower birth rate

I'd say it is the need for women to enter the work force, and the social acceptability of that. Education can help employment, but I don't think merely being educated lowers fertility rates.

I should find some citations (no time ATM) but I've heard it actually does.

[maiforpeace]

But as some people in the thread have pointed out, there's a connection between educated women in the populace and a lower birth rate

I'd say it is the need for women to enter the work force, and the social acceptability of that. Education can help employment, but I don't think merely being educated lowers fertility rates.

But having a higher disposable income does. And that comes with being better educated.

[Warren Dew]

Libertarianism is the best way to ensure 99% of the population die, good job those 99% have come to that conclusion a long time ago

Libertarianism makes 1% of us immortal? I didn't know that.

[Tyrannical]

But as some people in the thread have pointed out, there's a connection between educated women in the populace and a lower birth rate

I'd say it is the need for women to enter the work force, and the social acceptability of that. Education can help employment, but I don't think merely being educated lowers fertility rates.

But having a higher disposable income does. And that comes with being better educated.

And in some societies, the ones in danger of over population, more money means more children and sometimes more wives. They have as many children as they can afford, because a large extended family to them is wealth.

[Blind groper]

Tyrannical has, quite correctly, emphasized the local nature of the overpopulation problem. There is no global overpopulation problem. Throughout the western world, in most countries, fertility is less than 2.2, meaning a declining population. This is a major problem in itself, in that a smaller number of taxpayers are going to have to financially support a growing number of elderly, with their very expensive health needs. In fact, I predict future campaigns to get women to have more than 2 children.

The only places where population growth is a problem is in certain third world countries, where fertility is high. These are local problems only.

For all those nincompoops who talk of various people topping themselves to make room for the new generation, please take note of where you live. Is your home country one of those with an overpopulation problem, or one with a low fertility problem?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_so ... ility_rate

Any country that has fertility less than 2.2 has a declining population. The USA, for example, has 2.05

[Warren Dew]

Sorry to derail the thread, but congratulations! From what I've seen, you and your wife make great kids. The world could use more great kids. IMHO.

Thanks! I think so too, of course. Plus, my wife wanted to round up on the 2.1 kids that's the replacement rate - I'd already gotten my extra fraction from having three nephews.

You keep using the word "we", and "we" don't have to do anything because "we" don't have a problem.

Indeed. And that's the real reason why I don't feel guilty about it - and why Rum shouldn't either.

[Warren Dew]

The only places where population growth is a problem is in certain third world countries, where fertility is high. These are local problems only.

Population pressure can lead to migration, which can turn local problems into global problems. The UN projections assume that tropical countries will follow the same trends as temperate countries have, but that's not known for sure yet.

[Robert_S]

It could very well be that the cultural changes that lead to higher income also lead to people thinking they have better things to do than raise a half dozen kids or more.

[hadespussercats]

It could very well be that the cultural changes that lead to higher income also lead to people thinking they have better things to do than raise a half dozen kids or more.

Different things to do, anyway.