Unarmed teen shooting: the debate rages on...

[Tyrannical]

This is kind of funny too

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IouUsPsU ... re=related[/youtube]

[Coito ergo sum]

Neighborhood watch volunteers are trained to be the eyes and ears for police. According to the leader of the national Neighborhood Watch Organization, volunteers are not to be armed and they are not to pursue anyone. They are asked to call police if they see or hear something suspicious.

If he was told "we don't need you to do that" then that is what he should have done. Not gone any further, for any reason, not to get more accurate location or or pursue martin for any reason, and if he was a neighborhood watch volunteer chosen by "the neighborhood", then while on duty, he should not have been armed.

There's no proof that martin was acting suspicious to the degree that he looked like a dangerous criminal, except in the eyes of zimmerman.

Due to zimmerman's perception of martin, he stepped out of his boundery of duty which led to a confrontation and martin's death.

Martin also had the right to STAND YOUR GROUND" law to protect himself. He didn't know who zimm was as he never identified himself, (not in any reports that I know of), and what zimms intent was by following him and looking at him.

Shooting martin while fighting with him was only in self defense because he couldn't handle the situation any other way, but the cowardly way out and kill. He brought the confrontation on himself and therefore I don't consider it self defense.

Zimmerman had been trained and advised as a neighborhood watch NOT to carry a weapon, yet he ignored his training and carried a weapon, concealed no less.

On what basis do you make that statement? Source? I have never heard he was "trained" not to carry a weapon. And, concealed is the only way you're allowed to carry it. If you aren't licensed to carry concealed, then you can't carry it around at all.

Do you think the Neighborhood Watch Organization just makes those recommendations arbitrarily? Or could there actually be a legitimate reason for it? I'm sure the kid wouldn't have come close to doing what he did if he, in fact did jump Zimmerman. He wouldn't have even considered that Zimmerman might be carrying, a concealed weapon at that, basically abusing his position as a neighborhood watch.
Given this information, I hold Zimmerman largely responsible for this tragedy.

I reject the underlying premise. The neighborhood watch organization is just whoever in the neighborhood volunteers, and calls the police neighborhood watch coordinator. I also am not clear on what you're saying here - you said "trained" and "advised," and now you use the word "recommend." Can you provide information on exactly what Zimmerman was told, and by whom, about carrying a gun?

Can you explain the part of your post from "I'm sure the kid wouldn't have come close..." I think there is grammar trouble there, and I'm not getting your meaning. Are you saying that if Martin had known Zim was packing, he wouldn't have jumped him? Or, are you saying that Martin would have assumed Zimmerman WASN"T packing, and therefore he would never expect to be shot if he jumped him? I'm not trying to put words in your mouth - I just don't understand your sentences there, and I am pretty sure you don't mean one of the two things I just asked you about.

[Woodbutcher]

There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery. Then look around and see somebody white and feel relieved.... After all we have been through. Just to think we can't walk down our own streets, how humiliating.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Jesse_Jackson

I hesitate to blame anyone entirely for being subjected to the kind of society that inspired that quote from Jesse Jackson. People who don't live in that sort of social environment can easily look at it and place blame on individuals, but individuals don't emerge from a social vacuum. The people who actually live in FL voted to have a legal right to go armed because they are familiar with the local conditions. There are places in the US where I feel perfectly comfortable to go unarmed, and there are other places (the neighborhood where I used to work, east Knoxville, Austin East, for example) where I wouldn't even drive through without at least a handgun, day or night.

Zimmerman had his firearm legally, not criminally. If he made a mistake, it wasn't by going armed in a society where drive-by shootings, car-jackings, drug wars and so forth happen so frequently.

But neither is Martin totally to blame if he was the one who initiated the altercation. He was raised in a society that praises strength and aggression in men, and young men of his age feel a strong drive to prove their manhood, often using violence. Maybe if he'd had better role models?

This sort of thing will continue to happen as long as Hollywood and the music industry continue to propagate a culture of violence. But they'll keep doing that as long as violence sells. Whether they created the market themselves or are just capitalizing on it is an argument for another thread, I imagine.

This makes sense. Do not post here again. This is your final warning!

[Coito ergo sum]

And yet, you still live in fear.

This is the crux of it. I can understand enjoying guns for marksmanship, but that's about it. So, why this great need to have it to protect yourself?

I suppose it is because not everyone lives in as safe a neighborhood as you?

Really, how often in a lifetime, if in a lifetime, will you be in such fear for your life that you need to pack a gun. They are deadly and dangerous, and the chances of an accident gone bad are too frequent, to me to risk my own and other people's lives. I don't care how well trained you are, one never knows how they are going to act under stress.

It seems to me that it's you and amused who sound like you are afraid.

And, ironically, it's the big, able bodied men that are so into the guns for self protection. I have to wonder why, exactly? Maybe an attitude change would be less dangerous? I on the other hand am a small, old woman. If I am meant to die by crime, so be it.

Prejudice, bias, stereotyping, sexism, and implied deprecation. Is it "big, able bodied men" that are "so into guns for self-protection?" Most people have guns for more than one reason - self-protection, sport/marksmanship, hobby, hunting, etc. Women are buying and owning guns for those reasons, including self-protection, at increasing rates, and other than most men actually being able-bodied, and bigger than women, are you sure you really have anything except prejudice to assume that larger sized men are "so into" guns for self-protection (as opposed to other reasons)? It's this kind of thing that I wish some of you would realize you're doing. You're liberals, but you are imposing baseless, negative stereotypes, sexist ones at that.

And, I'm surprised you say something like "if I am meant to die by crime..." "Meant to?" By whom? Aren't you an atheist? Whether you die or not by crime is only because some fucking scumbag criminal "means" for you to die. There is no larger meaning behind it. To die by crime would be a waste of your life, a theft of your life by someone else. It's not some larger purpose, is it?

And, in the end, you may be comfortable giving your life rather than taking someone else's who is wrongfully trying to take yours, but I'm not sure why that would be considered some sort of moral high ground, or something anyone should strive for. To me, it sounds craven.

I'm not a careless fool - I exercise the usual precautions walking along at night, that sort of thing.

Like what?

Is there something other than looking where you're going and avoiding bad areas that one can do? Do you carry mace, pepper spray, a knife, or something?

Otherwise, I choose instead to walk everywhere without fear, and give people the benefit of the doubt. Sure, there are bad people out there but there are more good than bad mostly in the world I live in, I am very grateful for that. I also am multi-racial so don't stand out like a whitey, and with an open and friendly attitude I make myself at home, and feel welcome in communities of color. I don't have a need to lock the doors to my house when I am home. (My husband, however does. He also has a gun)

Life is too short to live it in fear, and to look at people with distrust instead of an open heart.

Carry a gun doesn't mean you're afraid. One may be, but so may people without guns. People without guns are often deathly and irrationally afraid OF guns, for example. They also can be quick to cower behind someone with a gun when there is an incident of some kind. Sometimes it sounds like folks think that rendering themselves non-threatening is the same thing is being "without fear," and it seems to me that very often avid gun opponents are like that. They think that by not having a gun, then nobody will want to do anything bad to them -- "just take all my money, and leave me be."

And, having a gun does not mean one can't look at people with an open heart. It can mean that on the rare occuasions when someone does have it in for you, that you may have a fighting chance. This is ,again, where I see your sexism and prejudice coming through. People who own guns, in your view, are afraid, and lacking in trust, and they don't have an open heart right? Your picture of these gun owners is a fearful "big man" who needs to what? Compensate for some shortcoming with a projectile firing weapon? That does appear to be what you were getting at.

[Clinton Huxley]

Coito: "People without guns are often deathly and irrationally afraid OF guns, for example."

Are they?What percentage of people without guns are "deathly and irrationally afraid" of them? I think you meant "sometimes" rather than "often". Such imprecision and hyperbole from you, CES! I'm shocked!


Coito: "They also can be quick to cower behind someone with a gun when there is an incident of some kind"
As a rule of thumb, being behind someone with a gun is better than being in front of someone with a gun....

[Coito ergo sum]

If he made a mistake, it wasn't by going armed in a society where drive-by shootings, car-jackings, drug wars and so forth happen so frequently.

Zimmerman did not live in that kind of neighborhood. I thought it was a well maintained middle/upper class gated community.

No, it was a fairly high crime, gated "townhouse" community. LOL. Just go to Zillow.com and see what the housing costs there are. A bunch apparently sold for $78,000. Rental rates are from $600 to $800 a month. Gated community doesn't mean "rich" in the United States, not necessarily anyway


1. I'll point out that you think Zimmerman has a reason to explain his presence in his own neighborhood, but Martin has no need to explain his presence, right? Didn't you previously say that Martin had every right to wander about the neighborhood? Doesn't Zimmerman? He has a permit to carry, so he can carry it around wherever he wants.

2. Apparently, there were a number of burglaries recently in the area, and he was on the neighborhood watch. It sounds pretty reasonable then, for him to be watching the neighborhood.

If you carry a gun everywhere, it means you're ready to use it whenever you feel threatened for your life.

One would hope, yes. The last thing I would want is people carrying guns around who aren't ready to use them when they feel their life is threatened.

But that's kind of bordering paranoia. Someone looks at you the wrong way, bumps into you the wrong way, says something you may interpret the wrong way, confrontation happens, and off the gun goes.

Well, that's not using a gun because you feel your life is threatened, now, is it? That's being a thug.

I lived in New York, went through really tough neighborhoods sometimes, and quite truthfully, I never felt threatened.

Good for you. Others have not been as fortunate.

The people who actually live in FL voted to have a legal right to go armed because they are familiar with the local conditions.

The south, is not a very good example of passing "sane" laws. In Georgia, it was (until last year) that it was "against the law" to give blow jobs to your partner. I don't know what that has to do with anything in real life, but it's just an example that just because people in a certain state pass a law, doesn't mean the rest of the country feels the same way or feel it makes any sense.

And there are dangerous neighborhoods in every single state.

[/quote]

The rural south is not where the gun homicides generally happen. Most gun homicides happen in blue states, California, Illinois, New York - where big blue urban areas often make handgun ownership unlawful within city limits, or highly, highly difficult to get. 1/2 the gun deaths in the US are suicides. 1/2 of the remaining gun deaths, the homicides, are by African Americans, generally in urban areas with illegal handguns.

[kiki5711]

South Florida neighborhood watch volunteers instructed not to pursue
March 23, 2012|By Juan Ortega, Sun Sentinel

The failure to make an arrest in the shooting death of Miami-Dade teenager Trayvon Martin could be sending the wrong message to neighborhood watch groups, state legislators and South Florida residents say.

Martin, 17, of Miami Gardens, was followed and confronted by George Zimmerman, the head of a neighborhood watch group in Sanford, even though a police dispatcher told Zimmerman that he didn't need to pursue the teenager.
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Sanford police haven't arrested Zimmerman, who argues the Feb. 26 shooting was self-defense.

"It is letting people think, 'I could possibly use deadly force and get away with it,'" Sen. Chris Smith, D-Fort Lauderdale, said Thursday. "I think you will see an increase in armed neighborhood watches. That's a concern for the future."

Whether the killing sparks an increase in vigilante-style confrontations remains to be seen.

South Florida's law enforcement agencies tell their sanctioned Citizens on Patrol volunteer programs, as well as local neighborhood watches: Report suspicious activity to 911. Don't play police officer. Don't pursue.

"They're told not to intervene, only to report suspicious activity," said Broward sheriff's spokeswoman Veda Coleman-Wright. "They're prohibited from carrying weapons."

The day of the Sanford shooting, Zimmerman called a police non-emergency line to report a person unknown to him as suspicious. Zimmerman can be heard pursuing Martin, even after dispatchers tell him not to. He describes Martin as a black male who looked like he was "up to no good."

It's unclear exactly what happened during the altercation, but Martin died from a gunshot wound to the chest.

Smith plans to spearhead a rewrite of Florida's Stand Your Ground law, which he says is too vague in allowing the use of deadly force in "self-defense" situations.

He said he doubts the controversy surrounding Martin's killing would deter overzealous residents from carrying weapons during patrols. Floridians are allowed to have firearms and conceal them if they have a permit, he said.

Getting criticized for shooting a teenager is "one thing," Smith said. "But not getting arrested and convicted because people think it's legal under the law? Oh God, I could just imagine what kind of message that sends out to the community."

Beryl Collins, 72, president of the Lauderhill Central Residents Association, said her neighborhood's watch program, established five years ago, is essentially a pact among residents to look after one another's property, complete with "neighborhood watch" signs added near roadways.

Collins said it would be reprehensible if any residents opted to conduct armed patrols. "It's a very bad idea," she said. "Because people like that are going to be trigger-happy."
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She said neighbors' phone calls to 911 have lead to several home burglary arrests over the years.

"It can be done without a gun," she said.

Zimmerman's actions were against guidelines followed by countless volunteer programs across the United States, according to the National Sheriffs' Association, a nonprofit which officially launched the Neighborhood Watch Program in 1972.

In a recent statement, Aaron D. Kennard, the association's executive director, referred to Zimmerman as a "self-appointed neighborhood watchman" who "significantly contradicts the principles" of watch programs.

Kennard said the association had no record of Zimmerman's group registering as a neighborhood watch.

"The alleged participant ignored everything the Neighborhood Watch Program stands for, and it resulted in a young man losing his life," Kennard wrote.

Nationwide, about 25,000 watch groups are registered with the sheriffs' association. Other groups are registered with local law enforcement agencies.

More than 3,500 volunteers make up the Palm Beach County Sheriff's Citizen Observer Patrol (COP), a program whose aim is reporting suspicious activity. The Broward Sheriff's Citizen Observer Patrol, with about 1,400 volunteers, shares the same objective.

Volunteers promote safer neighborhoods, serving as "the eyes and ears" of law enforcement, Palm Beach County sheriff's spokeswoman Teri Barbera said. They are told not to engage suspicious people for everyone's safety, she said.

"That's not the purpose of the neighborhood watch," Barbera said. "That's law enforcement's purpose."

In South Florida, it's unlikely anyone would have trouble identifying a Citizens on Patrol volunteer, authorities say. COP members in Broward and Palm Beach counties wear uniforms and drive specially marked cruisers, enhancing departments' omnipresence in communities, officials said.

"Our Citizen Observer Patrol is very structured with the volunteers who participate in it," Coleman-Wright said, adding that before volunteers are allowed to participate, they must pass criminal background checks.

Janet Thompson, a longtime resident of Hawaiian Gardens in Lauderdale Lakes, said she is grateful sheriff's COP volunteers patrol her neighborhood. But she said she is glad they're prohibited from carrying firearms.

"You just can't let people carry guns and not be properly trained," Thompson said. "If they're just a neighborhood watch, do they really need one? You just don't really know what they would do with it in an emergency."

Authorities say they are unaware of any residents abruptly and unofficially patrolling areas in their own cars.

Coito: On what basis do you make that statement? Source? I have never heard he was "trained" not to carry a weapon.

Because those are the RULES of being a neighborhood watchman.

[Coito ergo sum]

Coito: "People without guns are often deathly and irrationally afraid OF guns, for example."

Are they?What percentage of people without guns are "deathly and irrationally afraid" of them? I think you meant "sometimes" rather than "often". Such imprecision and hyperbole from you, CES! I'm shocked!

That's why I said "often," and I don't pretend to know the statistics. "Often" is no less "precise" than "sometimes." "Sometimes" can mean anything from twice to all but one of the times. Often just means with some regularity -- a lot.

Where I see a lot of irrational fear of guns is right here on this board, among the shrill cacophony of wailing voices, decrying gun owners as psychos, paranoid, fearful, and more recently "big men" who are apparently compensating for something, and even "hummer driving men with small penises."

For some reason, being male, of large physical size, or having a small penis, all seem to be areas where supposed liberals around here feel absolute comfort in deriding with ridicule. Ah, those fat women with large, loose vaginas and "fried egg hanging on a nail" tits....always compensating for something.... right?

Coito: "They also can be quick to cower behind someone with a gun when there is an incident of some kind"
As a rule of thumb, being behind someone with a gun is better than being in front of someone with a gun....

If you're fearful, yes.

[kiki5711]

kiki5711 wrote: But that's kind of bordering paranoia. Someone looks at you the wrong way, bumps into you the wrong way, says something you may interpret the wrong way, confrontation happens, and off the gun goes.

Coito: Well, that's not using a gun because you feel your life is threatened, now, is it? That's being a thug.

Thank you for proving my point. It spells out "zimmerman".

[Coito ergo sum]

South Florida neighborhood watch volunteers instructed not to pursue
March 23, 2012|By Juan Ortega, Sun Sentinel

The failure to make an arrest in the shooting death of Miami-Dade teenager Trayvon Martin could be sending the wrong message to neighborhood watch groups, state legislators and South Florida residents say.

Martin, 17, of Miami Gardens, was followed and confronted by George Zimmerman, the head of a neighborhood watch group in Sanford, even though a police dispatcher told Zimmerman that he didn't need to pursue the teenager.
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Sanford police haven't arrested Zimmerman, who argues the Feb. 26 shooting was self-defense.

"It is letting people think, 'I could possibly use deadly force and get away with it,'" Sen. Chris Smith, D-Fort Lauderdale, said Thursday. "I think you will see an increase in armed neighborhood watches. That's a concern for the future."

Whether the killing sparks an increase in vigilante-style confrontations remains to be seen.

South Florida's law enforcement agencies tell their sanctioned Citizens on Patrol volunteer programs, as well as local neighborhood watches: Report suspicious activity to 911. Don't play police officer. Don't pursue.

"They're told not to intervene, only to report suspicious activity," said Broward sheriff's spokeswoman Veda Coleman-Wright. "They're prohibited from carrying weapons."

The day of the Sanford shooting, Zimmerman called a police non-emergency line to report a person unknown to him as suspicious. Zimmerman can be heard pursuing Martin, even after dispatchers tell him not to. He describes Martin as a black male who looked like he was "up to no good."

It's unclear exactly what happened during the altercation, but Martin died from a gunshot wound to the chest.

Smith plans to spearhead a rewrite of Florida's Stand Your Ground law, which he says is too vague in allowing the use of deadly force in "self-defense" situations.

He said he doubts the controversy surrounding Martin's killing would deter overzealous residents from carrying weapons during patrols. Floridians are allowed to have firearms and conceal them if they have a permit, he said.

Getting criticized for shooting a teenager is "one thing," Smith said. "But not getting arrested and convicted because people think it's legal under the law? Oh God, I could just imagine what kind of message that sends out to the community."

Beryl Collins, 72, president of the Lauderhill Central Residents Association, said her neighborhood's watch program, established five years ago, is essentially a pact among residents to look after one another's property, complete with "neighborhood watch" signs added near roadways.

Collins said it would be reprehensible if any residents opted to conduct armed patrols. "It's a very bad idea," she said. "Because people like that are going to be trigger-happy."
Ads by Google

She said neighbors' phone calls to 911 have lead to several home burglary arrests over the years.

"It can be done without a gun," she said.

Zimmerman's actions were against guidelines followed by countless volunteer programs across the United States, according to the National Sheriffs' Association, a nonprofit which officially launched the Neighborhood Watch Program in 1972.

In a recent statement, Aaron D. Kennard, the association's executive director, referred to Zimmerman as a "self-appointed neighborhood watchman" who "significantly contradicts the principles" of watch programs.

Kennard said the association had no record of Zimmerman's group registering as a neighborhood watch.

"The alleged participant ignored everything the Neighborhood Watch Program stands for, and it resulted in a young man losing his life," Kennard wrote.

Nationwide, about 25,000 watch groups are registered with the sheriffs' association. Other groups are registered with local law enforcement agencies.

More than 3,500 volunteers make up the Palm Beach County Sheriff's Citizen Observer Patrol (COP), a program whose aim is reporting suspicious activity. The Broward Sheriff's Citizen Observer Patrol, with about 1,400 volunteers, shares the same objective.

Volunteers promote safer neighborhoods, serving as "the eyes and ears" of law enforcement, Palm Beach County sheriff's spokeswoman Teri Barbera said. They are told not to engage suspicious people for everyone's safety, she said.

"That's not the purpose of the neighborhood watch," Barbera said. "That's law enforcement's purpose."

In South Florida, it's unlikely anyone would have trouble identifying a Citizens on Patrol volunteer, authorities say. COP members in Broward and Palm Beach counties wear uniforms and drive specially marked cruisers, enhancing departments' omnipresence in communities, officials said.

"Our Citizen Observer Patrol is very structured with the volunteers who participate in it," Coleman-Wright said, adding that before volunteers are allowed to participate, they must pass criminal background checks.

Janet Thompson, a longtime resident of Hawaiian Gardens in Lauderdale Lakes, said she is grateful sheriff's COP volunteers patrol her neighborhood. But she said she is glad they're prohibited from carrying firearms.

"You just can't let people carry guns and not be properly trained," Thompson said. "If they're just a neighborhood watch, do they really need one? You just don't really know what they would do with it in an emergency."

Authorities say they are unaware of any residents abruptly and unofficially patrolling areas in their own cars.

Coito: On what basis do you make that statement? Source? I have never heard he was "trained" not to carry a weapon.

Because those are the RULES of being a neighborhood watchman.

That doesn't substantiate what Mai wrote. Reread what Mai wrote about Zimmerman having been "trained" to not carry a gun, etc.

[kiki5711]

The rural south is not where the gun homicides generally happen.

Then why the need for every man to carry a gun everywhere he goes?

[Clinton Huxley]

Coito: "People without guns are often deathly and irrationally afraid OF guns, for example."

Are they?What percentage of people without guns are "deathly and irrationally afraid" of them? I think you meant "sometimes" rather than "often". Such imprecision and hyperbole from you, CES! I'm shocked!

That's why I said "often," and I don't pretend to know the statistics. "Often" is no less "precise" than "sometimes." "Sometimes" can mean anything from twice to all but one of the times. Often just means with some regularity -- a lot.

Where I see a lot of irrational fear of guns is right here on this board, among the shrill cacophony of wailing voices, decrying gun owners as psychos, paranoid, fearful, and more recently "big men" who are apparently compensating for something, and even "hummer driving men with small penises."

For some reason, being male, of large physical size, or having a small penis, all seem to be areas where supposed liberals around here feel absolute comfort in deriding with ridicule. Ah, those fat women with large, loose vaginas and "fried egg hanging on a nail" tits....always compensating for something.... right?

Coito: "They also can be quick to cower behind someone with a gun when there is an incident of some kind"
As a rule of thumb, being behind someone with a gun is better than being in front of someone with a gun....

If you're fearful, yes.

Nah, it's always better to be behind the chap with a gun, even if he is on your side. He's probably a maniac.

[Coito ergo sum]

kiki5711 wrote: But that's kind of bordering paranoia. Someone looks at you the wrong way, bumps into you the wrong way, says something you may interpret the wrong way, confrontation happens, and off the gun goes.

Coito: Well, that's not using a gun because you feel your life is threatened, now, is it? That's being a thug.

Thank you for proving my point. It spells out "zimmerman".

Of course, nobody is even alleging that Zimmerman did anything of the kind, so it really spells, kiki just likes to make stuff up in her head based on a bias, prejudice and preconceived notions.

[Coito ergo sum]

Coito: "People without guns are often deathly and irrationally afraid OF guns, for example."

Are they?What percentage of people without guns are "deathly and irrationally afraid" of them? I think you meant "sometimes" rather than "often". Such imprecision and hyperbole from you, CES! I'm shocked!

That's why I said "often," and I don't pretend to know the statistics. "Often" is no less "precise" than "sometimes." "Sometimes" can mean anything from twice to all but one of the times. Often just means with some regularity -- a lot.

Where I see a lot of irrational fear of guns is right here on this board, among the shrill cacophony of wailing voices, decrying gun owners as psychos, paranoid, fearful, and more recently "big men" who are apparently compensating for something, and even "hummer driving men with small penises."

For some reason, being male, of large physical size, or having a small penis, all seem to be areas where supposed liberals around here feel absolute comfort in deriding with ridicule. Ah, those fat women with large, loose vaginas and "fried egg hanging on a nail" tits....always compensating for something.... right?

Coito: "They also can be quick to cower behind someone with a gun when there is an incident of some kind"
As a rule of thumb, being behind someone with a gun is better than being in front of someone with a gun....

If you're fearful, yes.

Nah, it's always better to be behind the chap with a gun, even if he is on your side. He's probably a maniac.

But, Hussars are big on guns.

Ergo, Huxley...probable maniac.

[Clinton Huxley]

Oh, Hussars love guns. I took care to always ride at the back (euphemism not intended).

Ergo - is there a Ratz who isn't a bit cracked?