Unarmed teen shooting: the debate rages on...

[mistermack]

No sign of two black eyes in those pictures, and a TINY scratch on the "broken" nose.
So much for the "unbiased" family doctor.

There will be be tens of thousands of people across the USA who look worse than Zimmerman after being involved in a fight, after any average Saturday night's drinking. If they all carry a gun, and shoot someone when they get the worst of a fistfight, you're going to have mass slaughter.
And MOST of the people killed will be innocent victims, like Martin.

If Zimmerman gets acquitted, you will have that situation where anybody with a gun licence can pick a fight with you, and if you get the best of it, he can just shoot you, legally.

It's hardly fair on the person who went out unarmed.
As a quick fix, I would bring in a law that says that you have to shout a warning that you are carrying a gun, if a fight starts. If you don't, you've got no right to claim self-defence if you shoot someone.


I think that the reason why the FBI are looking at bringing a case is that they don't trust the Florida authorities to make a real effort to convict Zimmerman.

[kiki5711]

zimmerman is a coward and a sore loser. it's not a fair fight if one of the person's has a gun. now he's putting his "innocent" face on. A day late, and a dollar short. next time he stops someone (suspicious looking) while "watching" the neighborhood, I hope they have a gun too and use it before zimmerman gets to.

[Coito ergo sum]

The fairness of the fight is irrelevant. In self-defense situations, I'd want the fight to be unfair on my side. It's not a sporting event. It's life and death.

[kiki5711]

so what! any fight for any reason is life or death. someone is gonna get hurt more than the other, and especially if the coward has a gun.

[Coito ergo sum]

so what! any fight for any reason is life or death. someone is gonna get hurt more than the other, and especially if the coward has a gun.

Having a gun doesn't make one a coward.

What is your evidence, other than the gun, that Zimmerman was a coward.

What is your evidence that Martin was not a coward.

Not all fights are life or death, that much ought to be obvious. If they were, then there would be no UFC fighting competitions or boxing matches.

Your feigned bravado aside, when someone attacks you to do you serious bodily harm, only a fucking balls out idiot would care if the person availing herself of the right of self-defense made sure the fight was "fair."

[maiforpeace]

Why did Zimmerman get out of his car? He was advised to stay there. He had his own gun, so his personal safety was not an issue while he remained in the car. Martin wasn't brandishing a weapon, and even if Martin taunted or threatened him verbally his only reason for leaving the car was an aggressive and offensive act. That is not self defense or being defensive.

Granted, once he got out of his car it may have been self defense, but even then it must have happened really fast for them to get physical with each other so quickly before he had a chance to pull out his gun. And, it's pretty common for someone not used to this type of stressful situation to mishandle their gun. ABC News did on 20/20, assisted by the police and a gun expert that's pretty eye opening. Unless you are the police and/or handle a gun under stressful situations regularly, it's a bit over-confident and naive of gun owners to assume it's all good as long as you have a gun.

If I Only Had a Gun, 20/20 segment. (about 10 minutes long.)
I'll be curious to hear what the gun advocates on this forum have to say about the experiment.

As for Zimmerman's injuries...while I don't doubt his physician reported the injuries accurately, did the report indicate that they were injuries inflicted by someone else? Unless the good doctor was some kind of expert in police work and/or forensics, it's just as plausible that Zimmerman may have inflicted them himself.

[Coito ergo sum]

Why did Zimmerman get out of his car? He was advised to stay there.

He was not advised to stay in his car.

He had his own gun, so his personal safety was not an issue while he remained in the car. Martin wasn't brandishing a weapon, and even if Martin taunted or threatened him verbally his only reason for leaving the car was an aggressive and offensive act. That is not self defense or being defensive.

The confrontation did not occur close to the time he got out of his car. He got out of his car, and he was on the phone with the 911 dispatcher. He was telling the dispatcher what he was seeing, and he was following Martin. You can hear the rustling as he's moving. He tells the dispatcher he is following the guy. The dispatcher says "we don't need you to do that." He responds, "o.k." You stop hearing the rustling. Zimmerman states that Martin has run off. He then walks around for about a minute and half to a minute and 45 seconds while coordinates with the dispatcher where to meet the cops.

Getting out of the car was not a hostile act any more than Martin walking around the neighborhood was a hostile act. He's a neighborhood watchman, coordinated with the police, and his job in that regard is to watch the neighborhood and report things. Based on the tape, that seems to be what he's doing.

Granted, once he got out of his car it may have been self defense, but even then it must have happened really fast for them to get physical with each other so quickly before he had a chance to pull out his gun.

After the minute and a half chat with the dispatcher, he hangs up the phone. It is at some time after that that the altercation took place. So, it did not happen really soon after getting out of the car. According to the 911 audio tape, Zimmerman had lost sight of Martin.

We don't know how the fight started. We do know that Zimmerman's head is injured on the back and he had a beaten or even broken nose, and a witness told the cops that Martin was on top of him and beating him "mixed martial arts style." So, according that evidence, when Zimmerman fired the gun, he was being beaten with Martin in the superior position.

As for Zimmerman's injuries...while I don't doubt his physician reported the injuries accurately, did the report indicate that they were injuries inflicted by someone else? Unless the good doctor was some kind of expert in police work and/or forensics, it's just as plausible that Zimmerman may have inflicted them himself.

I would highly doubt the physician opined who inflicted the injuries. However, one could reasonably infer that Martin did it, given the witness that told police that Martin was on top of Zimmerman beating him mixed martial arts style. That appears consistent with the injuries Zimmerman had, and the physician/police could look at the wounds and conclude the rough age of the wounds. If they had happened earlier, then they would not look like fresh wounds. The cops were there in minutes. Zimmerman was waiting for them there, and he was bleeding. Even if the wounds were not too old, they would still have started coagulating and healing.

And, it would seem a remarkable coincidence for Zimmerman to get nose and back of the head wounds just in time to use them as false evidence against Martin.

[kiki5711]

so what! any fight for any reason is life or death. someone is gonna get hurt more than the other, and especially if the coward has a gun.

Having a gun doesn't make one a coward.

What is your evidence, other than the gun, that Zimmerman was a coward.

What is your evidence that Martin was not a coward.

Not all fights are life or death, that much ought to be obvious. If they were, then there would be no UFC fighting competitions or boxing matches.

Your feigned bravado aside, when someone attacks you to do you serious bodily harm, only a fucking balls out idiot would care if the person availing herself of the right of self-defense made sure the fight was "fair."

I hear an Echo Echo Echo Echo

ya'r talking to yourself again? try some poppy seed tea.

[kiki5711]

As for Zimmerman's injuries...while I don't doubt his physician reported the injuries accurately, did the report indicate that they were injuries inflicted by someone else? Unless the good doctor was some kind of expert in police work and/or forensics, it's just as plausible that Zimmerman may have inflicted them himself.

plus, it's been now what, several months since the incident? when exactly did he go to his physician. I didn't hear about it before?

[Coito ergo sum]

As for Zimmerman's injuries...while I don't doubt his physician reported the injuries accurately, did the report indicate that they were injuries inflicted by someone else? Unless the good doctor was some kind of expert in police work and/or forensics, it's just as plausible that Zimmerman may have inflicted them himself.

plus, it's been now what, several months since the incident? when exactly did he go to his physician. I didn't hear about it before?

Physician records are not public until the patient signs a release, so that is why you wouldn't have heard about it until now.

Moreover, it's not just the physicians records that substantiate the injuries. It's the police report, the witnesses on the scene, the photos from that night, etc.

[Coito ergo sum]

so what! any fight for any reason is life or death. someone is gonna get hurt more than the other, and especially if the coward has a gun.

Having a gun doesn't make one a coward.

What is your evidence, other than the gun, that Zimmerman was a coward.

What is your evidence that Martin was not a coward.

Not all fights are life or death, that much ought to be obvious. If they were, then there would be no UFC fighting competitions or boxing matches.

Your feigned bravado aside, when someone attacks you to do you serious bodily harm, only a fucking balls out idiot would care if the person availing herself of the right of self-defense made sure the fight was "fair."

I hear an Echo Echo Echo Echo

ya'r talking to yourself again? try some poppy seed tea.

Since your contributions to the conversation are approximately equal to that of a sheer edifice, you may not be far from the truth.

[kiki5711]

Physician records are not public until the patient signs a release, so that is why you wouldn't have heard about it until now.

wouldn't you think that is the first thing he'd want released amidst all the contreversy?

[Coito ergo sum]

Physician records are not public until the patient signs a release, so that is why you wouldn't have heard about it until now.

wouldn't you think that is the first thing he'd want released amidst all the contreversy?

Why? People like you, who have their mind made up, don't believe his physician is honest anyway. And, you don't even believe the same descriptions in the police reports, or the images taken at the police station.

His main concern is his legal defense. Public relations is secondary. The State wants to fry him, or lock him up for decades. That's a bigger worry than whether you think he's a gunslinging coward.

[tattuchu]

I don't think he's a coward. If I were getting the shit beat out of me and in fear for my life, I'd have used my gun as well. I'm no fan of guns, but if I were in Zimmerman's shoes, I would be grateful I'd had one on me. What would be the preferable alternative to using it? Having my head bashed in? Dying? Would that be the brave thing to do?

[kiki5711]

Physician records are not public until the patient signs a release, so that is why you wouldn't have heard about it until now.

wouldn't you think that is the first thing he'd want released amidst all the contreversy?

Why? People like you, who have their mind made up, don't believe his physician is honest anyway. And, you don't even believe the same descriptions in the police reports, or the images taken at the police station.

His main concern is his legal defense. Public relations is secondary. The State wants to fry him, or lock him up for decades. That's a bigger worry than whether you think he's a gunslinging coward.

and people like you who have the whole scenario played out and sealed in stone. At least I try to look at the whole story as more info comes out, but NOT YOU. And I bet you're going to say that I never said anything but was made up my mind about zimmerman. That's all you SEE. You are like a horse with blidners on.