Conscription: State sponsored slavery?

[Thumpalumpacus]

I don't know about how you merkins practiced conscription, I know how it was practiced this side... and that still was somewhat gentler than how it was for young men who got press ganged into the british navy.

Which is why I'm arguing for a nuanced understanding in this discussion, instead of "drafting is teh slavery hur dur." Conscription has been practiced in many different ways, and it's true that some were slavish in appearance.

But pretending that that is the only form of conscription is inaccurate. When's the last time the Royal Navy press-ganged for personnel?

[Svartalf]

Spectrum it may be, but on one end, the divergence with slavery is pretty thin (at least, I've never seen any country sell its conscripted citizens to other militaries... though of course I just may have missed accounts of that happening at some unspecified date and location)

[Thumpalumpacus]

Spectrum it may be, but on one end, the divergence with slavery is pretty thin (at least, I've never seen any country sell its conscripted citizens to other militaries... though of course I just may have missed accounts of that happening at some unspecified date and location)

When all you focus on is one end, the nuances at the other end are naturally insignificant. That doesn't mean that they don't exist. It only means that you aren't looking.

The Hessians, who most notably served the British in the American Revolutionary War, were conscripts (so far as I know), and they were rented out. That strikes me as slavish.

On the other hand, countries have permitted legal protection from conscription based on varying factors, too.

Assuming that the first example is the truly representative example, and that the latter aren't, seems pretty convenient, to me. Examine all of them. Otherwise, the redefinition of the word rests on cherry-picked "evidence", and is unconvincing.

[Warren Dew]

If the will to which soldiers were subject was arbitrary, than commanders could fuck their female conscripts. They can't.

Got some examples of female conscription to back this up?

A juror gets jack shit for pay, too. Jury duty isn't slavery, is it?

Jury duty should be voluntary as well.

[Warren Dew]

Which is why I'm arguing for a nuanced understanding in this discussion, instead of "drafting is teh slavery hur dur." Conscription has been practiced in many different ways, and it's true that some were slavish in appearance.

A nuanced understanding would recognize that slavery has also been practiced in many different ways.

[Svartalf]

I did not know about the Hessians... in France, conscription went through a long period of disuse between the end of the 100 year war, when they stopped pressing peasants into military service and the revolution when conscription became the norm... from the renaissance to the end of monarchy, French regiments seldom lacked for young men willing to live in poverty and possible hunger... even if recruiters could resort to getting them drunk before making them sign, but it was still technically a volunteer regime, supplemented by foreign mercenaries if need be (Scottish Guards, Hundred Swiss... even Croats who gave us "cravate", the French word for a necktie)... I assumed Germans had analogous customs.

[Coito ergo sum]

If the will to which soldiers were subject was arbitrary, than commanders could fuck their female conscripts. They can't.

Got some examples of female conscription to back this up?

World War 2 -- Britain conscripted women. Israel does, as does Taiwan and Peru.

A juror gets jack shit for pay, too. Jury duty isn't slavery, is it?

Jury duty should be voluntary as well.

Whether it should be voluntary is not the same question as whether it, or conscription, is slavery.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Which is why I'm arguing for a nuanced understanding in this discussion, instead of "drafting is teh slavery hur dur." Conscription has been practiced in many different ways, and it's true that some were slavish in appearance.

A nuanced understanding would recognize that slavery has also been practiced in many different ways.

Indeed. But in every instance, one person's ownership of another has been a defining attribute.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I did not know about the Hessians... in France, conscription went through a long period of disuse between the end of the 100 year war, when they stopped pressing peasants into military service and the revolution when conscription became the norm... from the renaissance to the end of monarchy, French regiments seldom lacked for young men willing to live in poverty and possible hunger... even if recruiters could resort to getting them drunk before making them sign, but it was still technically a volunteer regime, supplemented by foreign mercenaries if need be (Scottish Guards, Hundred Swiss... even Croats who gave us "cravate", the French word for a necktie)... I assumed Germans had analogous customs.

Yeah, it actually has a pretty varied history by country and era; some countries never had it, others have, and still others didn't have formal conscription, but economic conditions were such that the military could treat volunteers like conscripts without too much worry over desertion, etc.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

If the will to which soldiers were subject was arbitrary, than commanders could fuck their female conscripts. They can't.

Got some examples of female conscription to back this up?

World War 2 -- Britain conscripted women. Israel does, as does Taiwan and Peru.

USSR, WWII.

[Svartalf]

and those lasses were even more frightening than gaghaffi's panthers or NK female soldiers...

[Gawdzilla Sama]

and those lasses were even more frightening than gaghaffi's panthers or NK female soldiers...

The Nazis really hated the Black Widows from reports I read.

[Svartalf]

Given how much they made love to them when they could lay hand on one of them, that's hard to believe.

[Ian]

World War 2 -- Britain conscripted women. Israel does, as does Taiwan and Peru.

Any excuse to post links to the women of the IDF...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/idfonline/ ... 3245265101
http://www.patriotfiles.com/forum/showt ... p?t=107414
http://www.cracked.com/funny-4722-women-idf/

[Animavore]

Israel does? Is that to pissoff the Muslims they'll be expected to harass?