Conscription: State sponsored slavery?

[Svartalf]

The following points ARE definitely relevant.

1. A slave becomes a slave with no say about being impressed into such a status, neither does a conscript
2. A slave does what he's told to do, and is not allowed to protest or refuse. so does a conscript and neither is he allowed to talk back.
3. a slave that disobeys orders or tries to run away is punished, possibly with extreme severity, so is a conscript.

Also,
4. A slave is subject to the arbitrary will of his master, who is not bound to respect any promises he makes or liable to any penalty if he defaults on such promises or mistreats the slaves... Similarly, while conscription is theoretically more akin to indentured service, with certain limits and a fixed duration, nothing prevents the state from welshing on that and moving the goal posts.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Draftees sign a contract with the government. That's the binding part, the oath is symbolic. Slaves don't sign contracts.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

The following points ARE definitely relevant.

1. A slave becomes a slave with no say about being impressed into such a status, neither does a conscript
2. A slave does what he's told to do, and is not allowed to protest or refuse. so does a conscript and neither is he allowed to talk back.
3. a slave that disobeys orders or tries to run away is punished, possibly with extreme severity, so is a conscript.

And the fact that a conscript is not a slave makes all that shit irrelevant.

[Svartalf]

You ninja posted as I was editing... the fact that the conscription is NOT binding on the part of the state and that the conscript may be effectively enslaved and killed puts the relevance back into it.

[Coito ergo sum]

The following points ARE definitely relevant.

1. A slave becomes a slave with no say about being impressed into such a status, neither does a conscript

Neither does a person serving on jury duty.

2. A slave does what he's told to do, and is not allowed to protest or refuse. so does a conscript and neither is he allowed to talk back.

There are no limits to what a slave may be told to do, but there are limits to what a conscript may be told to do.

3. a slave that disobeys orders or tries to run away is punished, possibly with extreme severity, so is a conscript.

A soldier is duty bound to disobey an illegal order. A slave has no duty other than to obey.

Also,
4. A slave is subject to the arbitrary will of his master, who is not bound to respect any promises he makes or liable to any penalty if he defaults on such promises or mistreats the slaves... Similarly, while conscription is theoretically more akin to indentured service, with certain limits and a fixed duration, nothing prevents the state from welshing on that and moving the goal posts.

A soldier is not subject to "arbitrary" will. That's why, say, female soldiers have recourse when they are sexually harassed, etc. The commander may not just fuck his conscripts. A slaveowner may fuck his slaves.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I'm grateful for your family's service, and sacrifices.

Grateful? I've posted these pictures before. You might want to reconsider having used that word.

I hadn't seen those pictures ... or at least, I don't remember having done so. Forgive me for not knowing your family's history, at any rate.

And yes, I had assumed they served the cause of freedom, so I will take the opportunity to retract my words. Thanks for the opportunity to allow me to do so graciously.

May I take your silence on my other points as agreement?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

You ninja posted as I was editing... the fact that the conscription is NOT binding on the part of the state and that the conscript may be effectively enslaved and killed puts the relevance back into it.

Maybe on your planet.

[Svartalf]

A Conscript IS subject to arbitrary will. His service can be prolonged without notice, or he may be sent into combat when he was supposed to perform peacetime garrison service. Without particular compensation either.

Also, have you ever compared the pay scales between enlisted career soldiers and conscripts? An actual soldiers gets everything a conscript gets, if not better, AND half decent wages... the conscript might have had better allowance as a teenager than what he gets while he serves.

[Svartalf]

You ninja posted as I was editing... the fact that the conscription is NOT binding on the part of the state and that the conscript may be effectively enslaved and killed puts the relevance back into it.

Maybe on your planet.

It actually happened on my planet... guys who were supposed to spend a year and a half in a garrison town, and did not see what came onto them as they were shipped overseas to fight, when the country was not even officially at war, and were kept more like three years, if they did not come back in a box.

[Thumpalumpacus]

A Conscript IS subject to arbitrary will. His service can be prolonged without notice, or he may be sent into combat when he was supposed to perform peacetime garrison service. Without particular compensation either.

The conditions of service are more nuanced than this. Also, the American military has features such as hazardous duty pay, flight pay, jump bonuses, and other extra remunerations available to conscripts as well as volunteers.

Also, have you ever compared the pay scales between enlisted career soldiers and conscripts? An actual soldiers gets everything a conscript gets, if not better, AND half decent wages... the conscript might have had better allowance as a teenager than what he gets while he serves.

This isn't the case in the history of American conscription.

[Coito ergo sum]

A Conscript IS subject to arbitrary will. His service can be prolonged without notice, or he may be sent into combat when he was supposed to perform peacetime garrison service. Without particular compensation either.

Also, have you ever compared the pay scales between enlisted career soldiers and conscripts? An actual soldiers gets everything a conscript gets, if not better, AND half decent wages... the conscript might have had better allowance as a teenager than what he gets while he serves.

A conscript is subject to the will of his commanders and the armed force to which he is assigned, but that will is not "arbitrary." There are limits and rules. And, he is paid. He may also be conscientious objector, whereas a slave can't.

If the will to which soldiers were subject was arbitrary, than commanders could fuck their female conscripts. They can't.

A juror gets jack shit for pay, too. Jury duty isn't slavery, is it?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

A Conscript IS subject to arbitrary will. His service can be prolonged without notice, or he may be sent into combat when he was supposed to perform peacetime garrison service. Without particular compensation either.

Also, have you ever compared the pay scales between enlisted career soldiers and conscripts? An actual soldiers gets everything a conscript gets, if not better, AND half decent wages... the conscript might have had better allowance as a teenager than what he gets while he serves.

You are pontification from your rectal cavity. The conscript in the US signs for the same length of service as any volunteer, six years. The difference is usually the amount of active duty they serve. AND that term can be extended to "such time as the President may direct." This is only used in times of national crisis. He would also be illegible for combat pay in exactly the same amount as a volunteer of similar rank and experience.

As for pay scales, you speak of France, and make it sound like it's the whole world. It sucks to be French, but I'm not.

[Svartalf]

I don't know about how you merkins practiced conscription, I know how it was practiced this side... and that still was somewhat gentler than how it was for young men who got press ganged into the british navy.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

You ninja posted as I was editing... the fact that the conscription is NOT binding on the part of the state and that the conscript may be effectively enslaved and killed puts the relevance back into it.

Maybe on your planet.

It actually happened on my planet... guys who were supposed to spend a year and a half in a garrison town, and did not see what came onto them as they were shipped overseas to fight, when the country was not even officially at war, and were kept more like three years, if they did not come back in a box.

In your small and increasingly irrelevant corner of the planet.

[Svartalf]

A Conscript IS subject to arbitrary will. His service can be prolonged without notice, or he may be sent into combat when he was supposed to perform peacetime garrison service. Without particular compensation either.

Also, have you ever compared the pay scales between enlisted career soldiers and conscripts? An actual soldiers gets everything a conscript gets, if not better, AND half decent wages... the conscript might have had better allowance as a teenager than what he gets while he serves.

A conscript is subject to the will of his commanders and the armed force to which he is assigned, but that will is not "arbitrary." There are limits and rules. And, he is paid. He may also be conscientious objector, whereas a slave can't.

If the will to which soldiers were subject was arbitrary, than commanders could fuck their female conscripts. They can't.

A juror gets jack shit for pay, too. Jury duty isn't slavery, is it?

and I did state that at some levels, the limits and rules were played fast and loose if it suited the people in the ministry of war.