Conscription: State sponsored slavery?

[Rum]

It might seem an odd thought but I took my parents off for a trip to the coast today and we got chatting. Dad may be 87 but he still has a working brain.

..anyway.

We got t walking about WW2 and the way his generation had been enthusiastic to fight Hitler. Most of them were of course conscripts. One thing led to another and it suddenly occurred to me when we got on to the way the USSR shot any soldier who so much as retreated at times that even if they are paid soldiers are in effect slaves to the state, but that this applied to the soldiers of any State. They have no personal freedom. They have no choice, at the risk of death, but to follow orders. They can't discuss their leaders objectives in any sort of critical way. Etc..

What do you think?

[Seabass]

I suppose it depends on what you mean by "slavery". Is taxation slavery?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

It might seem an odd thought but I took my parents off for a trip to the coast today and we got chatting. Dad may be 87 but he still has a working brain.

..anyway.

We got t walking about WW2 and the way his generation had been enthusiastic to fight Hitler. Most of them were of course conscripts. One thing led to another and it suddenly occurred to me when we got on to the way the USSR shot any soldier who so much as retreated at times that even if they are paid soldiers are in effect slaves to the state, but that this applied to the soldiers of any State. They have no personal freedom. They have no choice, at the risk of death, but to follow orders. They can't discuss their leaders objectives in any sort of critical way. Etc..

What do you think?

Um, Rum, what the fuck are you talking about?

[Traveler]

I never even considered entering the military because I knew that mindless obedience was something I couldn't manage to accomplish. I'm a "question authority" kind of person. I also felt that boot camp was too much like hazing. A practice that I consider beyond cruel. Fortunately for me, women couldn't be drafted.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I never even considered entering the military because I knew that mindless obedience was something I couldn't manage to accomplish. I'm a "question authority" kind of person. I also felt that boot camp was too much like hazing. A practice that I consider beyond cruel. Fortunately for me, women couldn't be drafted.

Yet another stereotype. The days of "mindless obedience" were over in WWII. The troops that didn't think, died.

[Svartalf]

Iz funny... they started giving out more and more exemptions from military service the more technical the army got, and the less need of unskilled labour it needed. They essentially did away with the military service when its usefulness to a modern military got overtaken by its costs in a period when cutting those was a politico's first objective. Of course, now, they are wondering why the younger generations have difficulties with knowing what it feels like to be a citizen, and to look at people as French first, and members of their respective groups and communities second...

We moved from a conscription to a volunteer professional army. And I have a lot less empathy for these guys than I might have had for young paul, dick and musa... Sure, they alienate a lot of their liberties and go into a job where they are expected to go into the line of fire and carry out their objectives.
They weren't pressured into it, even the Foreign Legion guys who did it because they'd rather get shot at than cooped up with their three hots and cot. When it was taking peasant boys from Brittany or Languedoc and sending them to the grey bleekness of the North or Rhine country, where they might be called on to make a living shield of their bodies in case of German attack, or ordered to shoot protesting mine or metalworkers... That I had a problem with.

[Jesus_of_Nazareth]

A mate of mine was conscripted into the French Army (at 17?) - actually he could have legally got out of it becuase he had parent who was not French, and he wasn't living in France!.....but he had fuck all else better to do.

They trained him as...........a Pastry Chef (Patisserie - cakes and stuff).

Some things you just can't make up!

[Seabass]

I never even considered entering the military because I knew that mindless obedience was something I couldn't manage to accomplish. I'm a "question authority" kind of person. I also felt that boot camp was too much like hazing. A practice that I consider beyond cruel. Fortunately for me, women couldn't be drafted.

How is military service any more about "mindless obedience" than any other job in which you fill a subordinate role and have to answer to higher ranking employees/employer?

[Jesus_of_Nazareth]

I never even considered entering the military because I knew that mindless obedience was something I couldn't manage to accomplish. I'm a "question authority" kind of person. I also felt that boot camp was too much like hazing. A practice that I consider beyond cruel. Fortunately for me, women couldn't be drafted.

How is military service any more about "mindless obedience" than any other job in which you fill a subordinate role and have to answer to higher ranking employees/employer?

They don't shoot you for leaving?

or send you to prison for calling the boss a cunt and shitting on his desk.

[macdoc]

slaves are owned the state does not own the soldier as property

soldiers maybe indentured or conscripted - not slaves tho in the normal term as I understand it.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Some of you folks have been watching too many movies.

[Audley Strange]

It might seem an odd thought but I took my parents off for a trip to the coast today and we got chatting. Dad may be 87 but he still has a working brain.

..anyway.

We got t walking about WW2 and the way his generation had been enthusiastic to fight Hitler. Most of them were of course conscripts. One thing led to another and it suddenly occurred to me when we got on to the way the USSR shot any soldier who so much as retreated at times that even if they are paid soldiers are in effect slaves to the state, but that this applied to the soldiers of any State. They have no personal freedom. They have no choice, at the risk of death, but to follow orders. They can't discuss their leaders objectives in any sort of critical way. Etc..

What do you think?

It's a good question actually but I'm inclined to say no since society decided the state can to do whatever the fuck it wants with it's civilians anyway, conscription is just another way to fling peasants at another member of the landed gentry with whom you have a difference of opinion. The thing about WWII is that the allies were well fucking lucky that the Nazi's were insane because if you exclude the death camps the war would have been as pointless and stupid as the previous one.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

The thing about WWII is that the allies were well fucking lucky that the Nazi's were insane because if you exclude the death camps the war would have been as pointless and stupid as the previous one.

The Allies went to war with the Nazis before we knew much at all about the vernichtunglagers.

[Audley Strange]

The thing about WWII is that the allies were well fucking lucky that the Nazi's were insane because if you exclude the death camps the war would have been as pointless and stupid as the previous one.

The Allies went to war with the Nazis before we knew much at all about the vernichtunglagers.

Yes because of continued ignoring of reparations payments. If Hitler's Vernichtung had been metaphorical rather than literal the war would have been an ugly farce. I'm saying that because Hilter's gang turned out to be actual villains, everyone feels a bit better about it. Like it was necessary.

[macdoc]

t's a good question actually but I'm inclined to say no since society decided the state can to do whatever the fuck it wants with it's civilians anyway,

Um no - that's habeas corpus and charters are for.