Gawdzilla wrote:Excellent book! And the most important thing was not how the information was gained, but how it was used.
Indeed it was. The entire cat-and-mouse is intensely fascinating in its own right.
But back to the original point: there may have been a breach in security which revealed the contraband, but assuming that that's the case adds nothing to the conversation. Aside from your point about how little was carried, the fact is that the German Foreign Ministry was intensely concerned about avoiding America's involvement in the war, to the point that they pressed upon the Kaiser an end to unrestricted U-boat warfare, even though it was a very successful method of prosecuting the war, and perhaps Germany's only real chance to break the stalemate that had already developed by 1915. American anger over this sinking played a major part in the cessation of unrestricted U-boat warfare.
these are things we think we know
these are feelings we might even share
these are thoughts we hide from ourselves
these are secrets we cannot lay bare.
these are things we think we know
these are feelings we might even share
these are thoughts we hide from ourselves
these are secrets we cannot lay bare.
Thumpalumpacus wrote:American anger over this sinking played a major part in the cessation of unrestricted U-boat warfare.
Temporarily. In both wars the Germans went with unrestricted submarine warfare on the assumption that it would help them win the war before the American got involved.
BTW, despite the condemnation of unrestricted submarine warfare one of the first operational orders issued by the US after the attack on Pearl Harbor was "Commence unrestricted submarine warfare against the Empire of Japan. "
Ein Ubootsoldat wrote:“Ich melde mich ab. Grüssen Sie bitte meine Kameraden.”
It was a weird mix of cross-national loyalties, with alliances called in. It began with various powers in Europe, in assorted alliances, all poised to go at each other.
At the time, one of the big powers was the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Those guys were in an expansionist mood, and Serbia was a nice little country just ripe to be sucked up. The only trouble was that Serbia had, as an ally, mighty Russia. The trigger was an assassination of an Austro-Hungarian duke by Serbian terrorists. Austro-Hungary told Serbia to deliver the culprits, or else. Serbia wanted to, but, like terrorists everywhere, they disappeared. Austro-Hungary invades, and Russia moved in to fight them. Austro-Hungary called on its ally, Germany, to help, which it did. Germany decided it was a good time to expand its own borders, and invaded Belgium, Belgium had, as an ally, Britain, which was a major power in its own right. Britain roared into the battle, bringing its allies with it. Part way through the war, Russia had its revolution, and withdrew from the war, leaving Britain (and allies) in deep poop.
So in the end, Britain and its allies were in deep battle with the Austro-Hungarians and their allies, including Germany...
Thumpalumpacus wrote:American anger over this sinking played a major part in the cessation of unrestricted U-boat warfare.
Temporarily. In both wars the Germans went with unrestricted submarine warfare on the assumption that it would help them win the war before the American got involved.
BTW, despite the condemnation of unrestricted submarine warfare one of the first operational orders issued by the US after the attack on Pearl Harbor was "Commence unrestricted submarine warfare against the Empire of Japan. "
Yep. Nimitz testified at Doenitz's trial, did he not? Or did he file an affidavit? I can't remember which it was, but I know that Nimitz personally acknowledged our identical behavior.
these are things we think we know
these are feelings we might even share
these are thoughts we hide from ourselves
these are secrets we cannot lay bare.
About me: "Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate and wine in each hand, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
laklak wrote:Back on topic. Good God Y'all, what is it good for? Absolutely nothing, hey hey hey.
More controversial the topic=the more chance of it being derailed.
The seth theory i call it.
Trolldor wrote:Ahh cardinal Pell. He's like a monkey after a lobotomy and three lines of cocaine.
The Pope was today knocked down at the start of Christmas mass by a woman who hopped over the barriers. The woman was said to be, "Mentally unstable."
Which is probably why she went unnoticed among a crowd of Christians.
Cormac wrote:
One thing of which I am certain. The world is a better place with you in it. Stick around please. The universe will eventually get around to offing all of us. No need to help it in its efforts...
Gawdzilla wrote:
Really? The Germans never found out about Ultra.
I am sure you can tell the difference between a situation when a small group of geniuses are ensconced into a small research facility, separated from the world, and wrapped in security, versus a ship being loaded with assorted war time equipment, where literally dozens of ordinary seamen, plus all those involved in transporting it to the ship and loading it, are in a position to discover the 'secret'.
I also rather suspect that the US government were well aware of what was going on and approved.
You don't have a clue what ULTRA was about, I see.
And if you don't have sources, you have a nice day, you hear?
ULTRA? that was the fact that the german signals and messages were gathered... didn't they have other code names for the setup at blentchley park, or the fact that they had analogs to the Enigma systems, or the way they managed to semi automate the decoding?
Thumpalumpacus wrote:American anger over this sinking played a major part in the cessation of unrestricted U-boat warfare.
Temporarily. In both wars the Germans went with unrestricted submarine warfare on the assumption that it would help them win the war before the American got involved.
BTW, despite the condemnation of unrestricted submarine warfare one of the first operational orders issued by the US after the attack on Pearl Harbor was "Commence unrestricted submarine warfare against the Empire of Japan. "
Yep. Nimitz testified at Doenitz's trial, did he not? Or did he file an affidavit? I can't remember which it was, but I know that Nimitz personally acknowledged our identical behavior.
Didn't impress the British or Soviets that much, however.
Ein Ubootsoldat wrote:“Ich melde mich ab. Grüssen Sie bitte meine Kameraden.”
Svartalf wrote:ULTRA? that was the fact that the german signals and messages were gathered... didn't they have other code names for the setup at blentchley park, or the fact that they had analogs to the Enigma systems, or the way they managed to semi automate the decoding?
There are twenty volumes in the US history of ULTRA collection, policy and usage. It's interesting reading if you like watching paint dry.
Ein Ubootsoldat wrote:“Ich melde mich ab. Grüssen Sie bitte meine Kameraden.”
