Unarmed teen shooting: the debate rages on...

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Re: Unarmed teen shooting: the debate rages on...

Post by Animavore » Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:05 am

Tyrannical wrote:
amused wrote:Zimmerman willfully and intentionally instigated an unnecessary confrontation that resulted in a dead kid.

Do we want to live in a society where that is commonplace?
Yes.

You are supposed to question strangers in your private neighborhood.
:what: Are you?

I hope you also have the right to tell such people to fuck off and mind their own business without threat of being shot.
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Re: Unarmed teen shooting: the debate rages on...

Post by mistermack » Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:30 am

Tyrannical wrote:
amused wrote:If Zimmerman had simply remained in his car, as requested by the police, a 17 year old kid would still be alive.
And if a certain 17 year old criminal did not assault and threaten Zimmerman's life, he'd also be alive today.
You don't care about the truth, do you, Tranny?

It's good to bear that in mind when you post.
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Re: Unarmed teen shooting: the debate rages on...

Post by Tyrannical » Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:54 am

Animavore wrote:
Tyrannical wrote:
amused wrote:Zimmerman willfully and intentionally instigated an unnecessary confrontation that resulted in a dead kid.

Do we want to live in a society where that is commonplace?
Yes.

You are supposed to question strangers in your private neighborhood.
:what: Are you?

I hope you also have the right to tell such people to fuck off and mind their own business without threat of being shot.
A little background......
The reason for this effectiveness is rather simple: Involving community members in watch programs decreases opportunities for criminals to commit crime rather than attempting to change their behavior or motivation.

Today's Neighborhood Watch Program is an effective means of crime control and neighborhood cohesiveness. While not all of the programs in place today go by the same name, they all accomplish the same goal: to bring community members together to fight crime. As Minor aptly wrote, "Neighborhood is the key to maintaining successful relationships."
http://www.usaonwatch.org/about/history.aspx?
Neighborhood Watch is one of the oldest and best-known crime prevention concepts in North America. In the late 1960s, an increase in crime heightened the need for a crime prevention initiative focused on residential areas and involving local citizens. The National Sheriffs’ Association (NSA) responded, creating the National Neighborhood Watch Program in 1972 to assist citizens and law enforcement.
In 2002, the National Sheriff's Association in partnership with USA Freedom Corps, Citizen Corps and the U.S. Department of Justice-launched USAonWatch, the face of the revitalized Neighborhood Watch initiative, which represents the expanded role of watch programs throughout the United States.
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Re: Unarmed teen shooting: the debate rages on...

Post by kiki5711 » Sun Apr 29, 2012 12:41 pm

And if a certain 17 year old criminal did not assault and threaten Zimmerman's life, he'd also be alive today.
How do you know he was a criminal?

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Re: Unarmed teen shooting: the debate rages on...

Post by kiki5711 » Sun Apr 29, 2012 12:42 pm

5. Martin weighed 140 pounds. Zimmerman weighs well over 200 pounds. [Orlando Sentinel; WDBO]

6. Martin’s English teacher described him “as an A and B student who majored in cheerfulness.” [Orlando Sentinel]

7. Martin had no criminal record. [New York Times]

8. Zimmerman “was charged in July 2005 with resisting arrest with violence and battery on an officer. The charges appear to have been dropped.” [Huffington Post]

9. Zimmerman called the police 46 times since 2004. [Daily Beast]

10. According to neighbors, Zimmerman was “fixated on crime and focused on young, black males.” [Miami Herald]

11. Zimmerman “had been the subject of complaints by neighbors in his gated community for aggressive tactics” [Huffington Post]
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/0 ... ?mobile=nc

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Re: Unarmed teen shooting: the debate rages on...

Post by Tyrannical » Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:15 pm

kiki5711 wrote:
And if a certain 17 year old criminal did not assault and threaten Zimmerman's life, he'd also be alive today.
How do you know he was a criminal?
Because I am assuming that Zimmerman did not initially assault Trayvon, and that Trayvon through his assault became a criminal. Of course I could be wrong and Zimmerman assaulted Trayvon first, but I don't think that has been suggested. Though I suppose Zimmerman could have wanted those skittles badly :{D

Besides, Trayvon was recently before caught with stolen jewelry. Though I don't know all the details, I couldn't imagine any reasonable person being in that situation and not at least knowing the property was stolen. There's also evidence to suggest he was dealing drugs in addition to being caught with drugs at school.
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Re: Unarmed teen shooting: the debate rages on...

Post by mistermack » Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:53 pm

I thought you were innocent till proven guilty?

Tranny, using your logic, Zimmerman is a murderer. That trumps anything Martin's done.
And Martin was innocent, and just acting in self defence. I know. The same way you know all that shit.
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Re: Unarmed teen shooting: the debate rages on...

Post by FBM » Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:57 pm

And the glaring fact that none of us knows what really happened continues to be ignored in favor of political spinning and rumor-mongering speculation.
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Re: Unarmed teen shooting: the debate rages on...

Post by Tyrannical » Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:57 pm

mistermack wrote:I thought you were innocent till proven guilty?

Tranny, using your logic, Zimmerman is a murderer. That trumps anything Martin's done.
And Martin was innocent, and just acting in self defence. I know. The same way you know all that shit.
You are innocent until proven guilty, in the eyes of the court.
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Re: Unarmed teen shooting: the debate rages on...

Post by mistermack » Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:11 pm

FBM wrote:And the glaring fact that none of us knows what really happened continues to be ignored in favor of political spinning and rumor-mongering speculation.
I know what really happened.
1) Zimmerman shot Martin.
2) Martin was unarmed
3) Martin was not committing any crime.
4) Zimmerman's injuries were trivial.
5) Zimmerman has lied twice in his public statements.
6) Zimmerman runs his errands with a gun concealed in his pants. Martin does not.

In the game of spot the loony, I'm choosing Zimmerman, not Martin.
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Re: Unarmed teen shooting: the debate rages on...

Post by mistermack » Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:13 pm

Tyrannical wrote:
mistermack wrote:I thought you were innocent till proven guilty?

Tranny, using your logic, Zimmerman is a murderer. That trumps anything Martin's done.
And Martin was innocent, and just acting in self defence. I know. The same way you know all that shit.
You are innocent until proven guilty, in the eyes of the court.
True. In the eyes of anyone with half a brain, Zimmerman is guilty of murder.
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Re: Unarmed teen shooting: the debate rages on...

Post by kiki5711 » Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:13 pm

Tyrannical wrote:
kiki5711 wrote:
And if a certain 17 year old criminal did not assault and threaten Zimmerman's life, he'd also be alive today.
How do you know he was a criminal?
Because I am assuming that Zimmerman did not initially assault Trayvon, and that Trayvon through his assault became a criminal. Of course I could be wrong and Zimmerman assaulted Trayvon first, but I don't think that has been suggested. Though I suppose Zimmerman could have wanted those skittles badly :{D

Besides, Trayvon was recently before caught with stolen jewelry. Though I don't know all the details, I couldn't imagine any reasonable person being in that situation and not at least knowing the property was stolen. There's also evidence to suggest he was dealing drugs in addition to being caught with drugs at school.
the officer reported he found women’s jewelry and a screwdriver that he described as a “burglary tool,” according to a Miami-Dade Schools Police report obtained by The Miami Herald. Word of the incident came as the family’s lawyer acknowledged that the boy was suspended in February for getting caught with an empty bag with traces of marijuana, which he called “irrelevant” and an attempt to demonize a victim.

Trayvon’s backpack contained 12 pieces of jewelry, in addition to a watch and a large flathead screwdriver, according to the report, which described silver wedding bands and earrings with diamonds.

Trayvon was asked if the jewelry belonged to his family or a girlfriend.

“Martin replied it’s not mine. A friend gave it to me,” he responded, according to the report. Trayvon declined to name the friend.

Trayvon was not disciplined because of the discovery, but was instead suspended for graffiti, according to the report. School police impounded the jewelry and sent photos of the items to detectives at Miami-Dade police for further investigation.

A lawyer for the dead teen’s family acknowledged Trayvon had been suspended for graffiti, but said the family knew nothing about the jewelry and the screwdriver.

“It’s completely irrelevant to what happened Feb. 26,” said attorney Benjamin Crump. “They never heard this, and don’t believe it’s true. If it were true, why wouldn’t they call the parents? Why wasn’t he arrested?”

Trayvon, who was a junior at Dr. Michael M. Krop Senior High School, had never been arrested, police and the family have said.

“We think everybody is trying to demonize him,” Crump said.

No evidence ever surfaced that the jewelry was stolen.
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Re: Unarmed teen shooting: the debate rages on...

Post by Tyrannical » Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:15 pm

mistermack wrote:
Tyrannical wrote:
mistermack wrote:I thought you were innocent till proven guilty?

Tranny, using your logic, Zimmerman is a murderer. That trumps anything Martin's done.
And Martin was innocent, and just acting in self defence. I know. The same way you know all that shit.
You are innocent until proven guilty, in the eyes of the court.
True. In the eyes of anyone with half a brain, Zimmerman is guilty of murder.
I can't argue with that :prof:
People with half a brain do seem to think Zimmerman is guilty :eddy:
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Re: Unarmed teen shooting: the debate rages on...

Post by FBM » Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:27 pm

mistermack wrote:
FBM wrote:And the glaring fact that none of us knows what really happened continues to be ignored in favor of political spinning and rumor-mongering speculation.
I know what really happened.
1) Zimmerman shot Martin.
But you don't know why or what led up to it.
2) Martin was unarmed
We know that now, but Zimmerman didn't at the time.
3) Martin was not committing any crime.
No, you don't know this. If he was looking for a house to burgle, he was in the process committing a crime. This is unknown.
4) Zimmerman's injuries were trivial.
Easy to say when it's not your head and nose bleeding. But perhaps they were trivial because Zimmerman had the guts to defend himself before letting Martin crack his skull completely instead of being a cowardly sheep about it? Again, this isn't known.
5) Zimmerman has lied twice in his public statements.
Need specifics as to what you're referring to here.
6) Zimmerman runs his errands with a gun concealed in his pants. Martin does not.
Again, you don't know this. You're extrapolating. Do you know that Martin had never carried a concealed weapon? Zimmerman has a license and is required by law to conceal his weapon. Open carry laws are rare in the US. As far as I know, it's only allowed in Arizona. Maybe Texas. Even with a carry permit, it's a "concealed" carry permit, meaning that you can't wear it out in the open.
In the game of spot the loony, I'm choosing Zimmerman, not Martin.
I'm suspending judgement based on the obvious fact that I don't actually know and am unwilling to commit the deductive fallacy because of any political or emotional bias. Would that others were so diligent.
"A philosopher is a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there. A theologian is the man who finds it." ~ H. L. Mencken

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Re: Unarmed teen shooting: the debate rages on...

Post by Tyrannical » Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:39 pm

FBM wrote:I'm suspending judgement based on the obvious fact that I don't actually know and am unwilling to commit the deductive fallacy because of any political or emotional bias. Would that others were so diligent.
It's not a deductive fallacy to suspect young black males commit crimes at a far greater rate than average. It's called pattern recognition.
A rational skeptic should be able to discuss and debate anything, no matter how much they may personally disagree with that point of view. Discussing a subject is not agreeing with it, but understanding it.

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